Talk:Yuri (animation)

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	Yuri (animation) is within the scope of WikiProject Anime and manga, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of anime and manga. If you would like to participate, you can edit this article or visit the project page (Talk). See our portal to learn more.
B	This article has been rated as B-Class on the assessment scale.

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject LGBT studies, which tries to ensure comprehensive and factual coverage of all LGBT related issues on Wikipedia. For more information, or to get involved, visit the project page.
B	This article has been rated as B-Class.

This article is part of WikiProject Fan Fiction, an attempt to expand, improve and standardise the content and structure of articles related to Fan Fiction. If you would like to participate, you can improve the article attached to this page or sign up and contribute in a wider array of articles.

This page has been cited as a source by a media organization. See the 2006 press source article for details. The citation is in: RCMP. "Dangers of Hentai Fact Sheet (pulled)", National Child Exploitation Coordination Centre, January 13, 2006.

Contents 1 Gokujou Seitokai 2 Explanations 3 The new article 4 Merge with shojo ai 5 Merged 6 Shojo-ai Talk 7 Links 8 Additions to shojoai list/Another idea 9 "Real life," or contributor's fantasy? 10 Minor Quibble 11 Hentai Fact Sheet 12 Really? 13 .hack//sign 14 shōjo-ai vs. shoujo-ai 15 Strawberry Panic 16 Magic Knight Rayearth? 17 The big list 18 Pronunciation 19 Explicit vs. interpreted yuri 20 Request for sources 21 Noir (there's shoujo-ai in Noir?) SPOILERS 22 Mai HiME & Mai Otome appearing in both 'central to the story' & 'includes' lists 23 Outstanding Issues 24 Nanoha x Fate 25 OEL question 26 Title question 27 Discrimination 28 Not Verified Tag 29 Still wishful thinking 30 "stories that include some yuri or shoujo-ai" section

[edit] Gokujou Seitokai

I've just recently watched this entire anime, and I have to disagree that it fits within the list of hentai/anime where yuri/shojo-ai is central to the story. Practically all of the yuri content is light subtext or only briefly mentioned, nothing central to the plot. I believe it should be moved to the "stories that include some yuri/shojo-ai" list. Yay/Nay? Soul Colossus 12:17, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Nay. Even if its mostly subtext, the story is centred around the realationships between GIRLS (Save for Eriko), and the anime is clearly Shoujo-ai. Actually, I think no one will actually agree with that. Sorry (Alexlayer 13:55, 8 February 2007 (UTC))

Well, I also think like Alexlayer. Haruka 3 21:01, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

What about it makes it clearly shojo-ai? The fact that it's focused on relationships between girls doesn't mean romantic relationships between them, none of which even exist in the whole anime except for one one-sided attraction (as I recall). It hardly qualifies as central to the story. However, it is a pretty trivial thing to further argue =P Soul Colossus 08:29, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Explanations

Could somebody please give explanations as to what the Yuri-Content of the mentioned series is? I mean, I consider myself a hardcore InuYasha Fan, yet I have seen nothing that even resembles Shôjo Ai here - so please help me out.

Not a bad idea. While not being a hardcore fan of it, I have similar doubts about Love Hina : girls taking baths together shouldn't count as shoujo-ai in a culture where such a thing is commonplace, no ?

Love Hina does contain a some shoujo-ai. For example, the episode when Shinobu fantasises about Su and her friend and they kiss at the end of it. That could be considered shoujo-ai, in my opinion.

---

So, should Love Hina be listed? It was listed some time back, if I recall.60.49.45.145 00:06, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

---

Love Hina's a toss-up, there is definately the Mutsumi x Naru kiss. And Mutsumi is simply a hot bi woman. :P Kyaa the Catlord 05:18, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

---

Good point. There is undeniably some element of yuri in Love Hina. As mentioned, Mutsumi x Naru exists. Then there's the Kaolla x Shinobu aspect, (fake)Naru x Motoko groping/molestation/rape. So I added it.218.111.186.7 06:07, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

---

To tell you guys the truth, I always saw the yuri content in Love Hina as mere fanserivce and not central to the story nor important at all. It only happened once and never came up again, so I don't really think it deserves to be listed at all...Radda 20:05, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Which is why it is not under "where yuri is central to the story". I always felt that Akamatsu missed the boat on this, he had several chances to explore yuri subplots and never really did. :P (I think he would now if he could rewrite the manga) Kyaa the Catlord 12:56, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The new article

So, I completely revised the article. Honestly it was a mess of random sentences without any real coherency, consistency, or structure, which is about what you might expect given that its history consisted largely of one-line additions and edits by anonymous users. (Hmm, people don't want their names attached to an article called 'yuri'. I wonder why.)

But here, let me give an example: Counterarguments note female-female relationships are portrayed in such a manner sometimes to remove overly dismissive doubt to the nature of romantic relationships between women. What in blazes does that sentence even mean? The new version may be less right, but it's at least more readable -- which hopefully means it's easier for someone to start fixing it. --Aponar Kestrel 06:34, 2004 Jul 28 (UTC)

[edit] Merge with shojo ai

If a bunch of people don't come in saying that they think of yuri and shoujo ai the same way (for either parsing of that sentence), this article should probably be merged with Shojo ai -- or, rather, shojo ai should probably be merged with this article. Then we can retitle it "Yuri and Shojo ai", set up redirects as appropriate, and get a real disambiguation page up so you don't have to come here to find Yuri (singer). --Aponar Kestrel 06:34, 2004 Jul 28 (UTC)

I don't understand the above, but whatever problem it was referring to has probably been aggravated by assigning the title [[Yuri {singer)]] to a Korean singer instead of the previous Mexican one. Yuri (singer) will soon be a Dab between the two former topics.
--Jerzy•t 07:34, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merged

I've included the gist of 'shoujo ai' into 'yuri', and I'll leave it to others to delete it. As mentioned, I think it'd be easier to copy over YURI's entry into SHOUJO AI with appropriate redirects, to avoid needing the yuri disambiguation page.

Actually, Mr.-or-Ms. 138.89.139.162, you removed portions of both shoujo ai and yuri and replaced the deleted portions with largely identical inaccuracies. Of special note is that the Japanese do not use shoujo ai to mean what Anglophones do. (appropriate Google Search) Ever.

Really? The Japanese Wikipedia article doesn't seem to support your claims. Tropsy 19:24, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

At any rate, Siroxo has already reverted your changes to shoujo ai, and I've mirrored the reversion over here. I cede that a list of the various definitions isn't notable to anyone save either an otaku or a very dedicated or specialized linguist, and I have thus removed those. --Aponar Kestrel (talk) 03:36, 2004 Sep 5 (UTC)

[edit] Shojo-ai Talk

Talk:Shojo-ai

[edit] Links

Deleted the link to Manga Bonbons' relevant page. MB being, alas, dead since 5 months, it was about time. Maybe a link to Onna! would compensate this loss ?

[edit] Additions to shojoai list/Another idea

I added Bleach to the list, figuring Inoue x Tatsuki is pretty canon.

I also added Air Master, against my better judgement. It does contain shoujo-ai.

Also, has anyone seen this? http://www.shoujoai.com/forum/topic_show.pl?tid=29037;pg=1

Personally I think it would be a good idea to incorporate this into Wikipedia. It could be changed so that personal opiunions listed next to series were changed to more objective statements like 'contains rape' or 'contains underage sexual content'.

This would naturally be moved to its own Wikipedia page, probably 'List of Shoujoai (Lesbian-related??) anime'.

Please respond if you agree that the above is a good idea. --Zaorish 20:31, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Objection : Neither Inoue nor Tatsuki are lesbians or have a romantic relationship with each other. Chizuru is a lesbian and likes Inoue, but she only shows up in VERY few references as comic relief, mostly getting injured by Tatsuki as she tries to go after Inoue. --Question2

Regardless of Orihime x Tatsuki, there are a couple of other characters who show up later in the show that definately scream lesbian. Kyaa the Catlord 05:08, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Real life," or contributor's fantasy?

"Young same-sex affection experimentation is considered natural in real-life Japan"

maybe not really, extremely rare, or author's misunderstanding of other cultures? In either case, it's not really clear what the author means. --69.212.101.139 29 June 2005 20:10 (UTC)

Contributor's fantasy. Clearly. TAtom

I agree "On the other hand, homosexuals who do marry, even if they are out, even if they have same sex lovers, are not discriminated in any way." also seems completly impossible. I have personally experienced native japanese reacting with extreme revulsion to any mention or perception of something as "gay" 128.62.213.215 05:14, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, that's a pretty dubious statement. --Masamage 05:19, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Minor Quibble

"Unlike YamiBou and Kannazuki no Miko, Marimite makes no attempt whatsoever to reach out to the male demographic..."

This article (http://www.geocities.com/marianaisho/articles/faninterview.htm), containing an interview with a (presumably well-informed) Japanese person, claims the series in its animated form is aimed squarely at the otaku culture. She points out this is the *male* otaku culture. This does seem a bit far-fetched, and would to anyone I know who'd watched the thing, but I thought it was quite interesting. Having no mad wikipedian skillz myself, I didn't add anything or take anything away in the article. *slinks away* --Anon

I've editted this statement out. It is loaded with personal opinion and POV. Marimite doesn't need mecha to lure boys to watch it, it simply doesn't need mecha or fanservice to do so. Kyaa the Catlord 20:44, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Actually that's kinda weird. Most guys of *that* kind of demographic hate Kannazuki no miko and don't fancy marimite much either, granted marimite both anime and manga esp are more aimed towards the female demographic. Guys who actually like the former are those who seriously watch yuri for the f/f romance, more is a bonus. * Group watches yuri only for tiltation, hates any real romantic development between female characters and hopes they go back to guys eventually. Digisouth14 19:37, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Even the concept of a series being targeted towards a gender rather than people who share a mentality is rather silly. I know guys who love MariMite for the emotions, and girls who love Gundam for the explosions. Debating which gender an anime is 'for' should probably be left to a message board rather than put in an encyclopedia. DamienReave 11:42, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hentai Fact Sheet

Should you or your child encounter hentai on the internets, zip up and then contact teh mounties! We wanna see too! That was good for a laugh. Kyaa the Catlord 19:19, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

The Royal Canadian Mounties -- patrolling the Internets since 1873! I think we can safely file this under Moral panic. -- Miwa 20:53, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

I've not even read past the first paragraph.. not only is it inaccurate and misleading (I mean.. Japan is the sole source of "hentai manga" so you'd expect it to be the world leader...) but they can't even spell 'pixelation'. Shiroi Hane 20:58, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

This reminds me of the crusade against role-playing games back in the 1980s. Misleading, skewed information and a failure to understand the basic concepts being crusaded against. Sadly, this also has xenophobia tacked on as well. -- Miwa 16:26, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Hilarious. One wonders what the article was even meant to accomplish. The final paragraph perhaps sums it up the best — that it's the parents' responsibility to monitor their kids' Internet access, and not the Internet's responsibility to cater to kids. And yet, it then says to report all hentai to them! Why don't we just download the Internet while we're at it? ;) – Wisq 16:32, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

The "Dangers of Hentai Fact Sheet" was pulled by the Mounties due to the issues brought up above. Silly Canadians. :D Kyaa the Catlord 08:37, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

See also Talk:Anime#National Child Exploitation Coordination Centre Issue. Shiroi Hane 18:29, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Really?

"On the other hand, homosexuals who do marry, even if they are out, even if they have same sex lovers, are not discriminated in any way"

I don't think that is an accurate statement at all. I'm not gay and not pushing a 'my people are so oppressed' barrow but that statement is obvious rubbish.

[edit] .hack//sign

This was removed earlier from the list of anime containing GL material. If you doubt this, please review the ending of the series. Kyaa the Catlord 09:13, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

It's not only the end. Tsukasa has a romantic type relationship with Subaru (as stated on .hack//Analisis) since early on the series, and the main reason for Tsukasa to log out was in order to meet Subaru. All this comes to a resolution when Tsukasa finds out that he is really a "she". How he deals with this is what lead us to the end of the series. The main theme of the series is to overcome one's fears and face reality. And it's through Subaru that Tsukasa finaly accepts his reality and logs out (Tsukasa's main fears were his father and the possibility that Subaru wouldn't want to meet him IRL because he was a girl. Morgana uses this as the last resort to prevent Tsukasa from log out). Of course this is Shoujo-ai, not Yuri (there's no explicit scenes), but it definitely has a main role in the story. Kazu-kun 23:08, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

It has a role in the last episodes, but it most definitely is not "central to the story".

I don't remember shoujo-ai being central to ROD either.

In the section after that, it lists F/SN as having some shoujo-ai. This isn't the case. Voretus the Benevolent 23:43, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

You keep saying "it has not" but you don't give any solid argument, and it seems you don't know anything about storytelling either. Just because they find out about Tsukasa in later episodes it doesn't mean it's not central to the story. It's central because it has to do with the main plot (I already have given proof of that). I should clarify that I'm talking about shoujo-ai as a literary device, not as a genre. About ROD and F/SN, I don't really know as I never watched those series. Kazu-kun 23:58, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] shōjo-ai vs. shoujo-ai

As the article says, it's not actually borrowed from a Japanese term; as such I've used its most common spelling, according to Google. (But if someone disagrees strongly enough to revert it, I'm not going to get into an edit war about it.)  –Aponar Kestrel (talk) 14:29, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Actually, both spellings mean the same thing. The ō is equivalent to ou. All this means is that the 'o' in ou/ō is pronounced a bit longer than just an 'o'. Therefore, it does not matter which spelling you use, both are equally correct.

[edit] Strawberry Panic

Would someone care to clean up the strawberry panic mess at the end? It doesn't link to the comic's article and summarizes the show in a way that goes completely off topic. (What with its emo beautiful people, dominance and enthralled submission, and lust/violence undertones, I'd almost rather classify it as yaoi in a female package...) -- ~

It read like an advert for the show, a very poorly written one. I refactored it. Kyaa the Catlord 11:20, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Magic Knight Rayearth?

What is Magic Knight Rayearth doing on this list? I don't remember anything of a shoujo-ai nature in the anime. Was it only in the manga?--Tally Solleni 17:13, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

You don't remember Nova? She was amazingly flaming. :P Kyaa the Catlord 18:09, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Dang, I did forget about Nova. Nevermind then.--Tally Solleni 16:59, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

I have to disagree with Nova being on this list. Nova was a part of Hikaru, and it was more sick obsession with killing her then wanting to hook up.SSLRranma

Yes, Nova did have a sick obsession for killing Hikaru, but she also had a fascination with her. Kyaa the Catlord 07:32, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

On top of that, her obsession with killing her was actually her way to show her love for her (In a completly wrong way, but that was what she was taught). There's even an little scene where both girl kiss each other. (Alexlayer 14:01, 11 September 2006 (UTC))

Ah, I just remembered that Nova wasn't in the manga (she created specifically for the anime). So, shouldn't it be mentioned somewhere on the page that the shoujo-ai was only in the anime?--Tally Solleni 14:55, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, the list specifically states "anime containing..." :P Kyaa the Catlord 17:29, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

I just did something about it, I hope it might be enough Alexlayer 20:40, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The big list

Wouldn't this be better as a category? Anyone know how to make one? :P Kyaa the Catlord 18:19, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I believe you just add a category link to the bottom of the article. You can also give the category itself a short introduction, as well as making it a subcategory to other categories in the same fashion. For instance at the bottom if this article there is a link [[Category:Anime and manga terminology]]. Shinobu 23:09, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't believe there is a category:yuri yet. We need to make one. :P Kyaa the Catlord 04:24, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Go ahead. By the way, a similar situation exists on Shounen and Seinen, but take it to the talkpages first. Shinobu 08:12, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciation

I've copied the link to Help talk:Japanese.

The rest of the section contained not enough info to keep for now, mainly stating that the r is an l. To my ear the Japanese r doensn't resemble an l at all, but okay, IANAL.

we already have a help page on Japanese romanization and pronunciation linked. Because there an integral overview can be provided, no oversimplification is necessary, so I think that's the better option. Shinobu 07:17, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Explicit vs. interpreted yuri

The "Non-hentai anime and manga with stories that include some yuri or shoujo-ai" section is rather misleading. Mixed in among the shows with actual explicit yuri/shoujo-ai relationships, there are shows like He Is My Master which simply happen to have a lesbian character (who doesn't end up in a relationship with anyone), and then there are shows like Futari wa Pretty Cure that are merely frequently interpreted as having possible shoujo-ai subtexts in what are only ever explicitly shown to be friendships. I'm all for listing shows that are commonly associated with yuri, but that shouldn't be the same list as the shows that actually have it, and the shows that merely have a lesbian among the cast (with no hint of them being in a relationship with anyone) don't belong in this article at all. --Andrusi 22:45, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Request for sources

There are several statements that are presented as fact that are opinion regarding the subtext of yuri. Currently 'magazine' is a placeholder which should be replaced by a source to fix POV sections. Without this, these statements are the authors POV and should be removed. Examples: 'the plot is mostly subtext' (essentially unproveable) and that two characters are 'obviously in a lesbian relationship'. Antonrojo 12:21, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Noir (there's shoujo-ai in Noir?) SPOILERS

Heck, we even have a kiss scene!! Chloe has romantic feeling towards Kirika, and she's a main character and also the counterpart of Mireille in the triangle formed by Noir aspirants. Her feelings for Kirika have a main role in the story as a driver for her to become an assassin and one of the two "hands" of the Soldats. And also her jealousy is the cause of her end, and that situation is what lead us to the resolution of the story. Defenitly a main role here! Like in .hack//SIGN, shoujo-ai is present in this series as a literary device, not as a genre. Kazu-kun 23:46, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mai HiME & Mai Otome appearing in both 'central to the story' & 'includes' lists

Why is this so? I don't think Mai HiME & Mai Otome belong in the 'central to the story' list. But I was wondering about the opinions of others.

In any case shows should appear in only 1 of the two lists.

Yeah, Mai HiME and Mai Otome appear in both lists. That obviously shouldn't happen, but I haven't watched those series, thus I can't help to decide which list they belong to. Can someone give a second opinion here, please? Kazu-kun 03:53, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

I've moved them so that they only appear in the central to the story list. Otome is totally a yuri/maid lovefest. Hime revolves around relationships, two of which are yuririffic. (Its arguable that there is a third relationship, but I don't like Mai x Mikoto) Kyaa the Catlord 06:15, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Another problem: Is there a difference between 'Battle Athletes' & 'Battle Athletes Victory'? Because they are in both sections as well, but link to the same wiki article. Someone please clarify this issue.218.111.185.27 02:11, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Outstanding Issues

This article sufferes from a large amount of OR and a distinct lack of sourcing. It really needs a complete rewrite. Adding nonsense, like the "magazines" fiasco, doesn't help. I've been toying with rewriting it myself, but November is right around the corner and I have a novel to complete. :) Anyone else interested? Kyaa the Catlord 08:18, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nanoha x Fate

I'm lazy so I'll post just a fragment (the hints about Fate having a crush on Nanoha are clear, and that's more than enough to be stated on the article):

Mahou Shoujo Lyrical Nanoha A's SOUND STAGE 01 (translated by Nagumo on Animesuki forum)

06 Fate no Ketsudan...? Fate's Decision...?

Fate: The water temperature is good. Nanoha you can take a bath first.

Nanoha: I couldn't... it's your house so you should go in first, Fate-chan...

Fate: Ah... Um you really should go in first, Nanoha...

Nanoha: Oh no, I couldn't, Fate-chan should...

Fate: No, really...

Both: Nervous laugh

Fate: I guess the only way to solve this... Okay, Nanoha. Then let's take a bath together.

Nanoha: Oh, that sounds like a good idea Fate-chan.

Fate: Is probably the best way to go about things but... I've only taken a bath with Ami before, but what will I do if the people of this world thinks that's weird..

Nanoha: Fate-chan? ... Fa~te~chan~?

Fate: If that makes Nanoha-chan feel uncomfortable... What will I do? But... I made up my mind to properly tell her how I feel with words...

Nanoha: Fa~te~chan~?

Fate: I guess I'm just going to call up my courage and... Nanoha...

Nanoha: Yes?

Fate: Um... Well... if you don't mind... Um... Um...

Ami: I'm home!

Nanoha: Oh it's Ami-san.

[edit] OEL question

I've added 12 Days to the list of manga with yuri/shoujo ai content. I was curious though, since Steady Beat isn't listed, do we not include OEL manga that contains yuri/sa content? Kyaa the Catlord 14:49, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Title question

If there can be an article called Shōnen-ai, why can't there be an article called Shōjo-ai? It would be more fair if there was both articles called Shōnen-ai and Shōjo-ai. 82.41.66.173 07:54, 3 December 2006 (UTC)DanZie Boy

Actually, rather than that, I believe that the Shōnen-ai and Yaoi articles should be merged into one, since both of them practically talk about the same. (Alexlayer 08:39, 3 December 2006 (UTC))

That sounds about right. --Masamage 19:07, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Discrimination

Someone keeps adding this sentence against consensus: "On the other hand, homosexuals who do marry a person of the other gender, even if they are out, even if they also have same sex lovers, are not discriminated in any way."

A request for page protection failed because, although the addition is from a dynamic IP, they don't do it frequently enough for reverting it to be difficult. A {{fact}} tag was recently added rather than removing it altogether; I suppose this is because reverting it was only making the rest of us risk WP:3RR violations. Anyway, I'm changing that to a {{dubious}} tag to make certain consensus agrees on its exclusion.

I hope the person adding it will come here, and will take note of WP's policies about verifiability. Finding references is the responsibility of the person who wants the material included, not of the people who want it left out. --Masamage 23:01, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I've been writing on the subject of homosexuality in Japan for a long time (I even manage a ML focused on the study of the representation of homosexuality in Japanese media), and, in fact, I'm the author of several chunks of this article on "Yuri" -- the progress of which I have been monitoring practically since the entry was created. I can affirm that, yes, indeed, the ideas expressed in the sentence in question are sound and summarize what is the consensus among cultural anthropologists who have done field research on the matter.

For those who feel that at least some quick confirmation is needed, here are a few quotes from the works of well-known experts:

1) American anthropologist Jennifer Robertson: "As long as an individual's sexual practices do not interfere with or challenge the legitimacy of the twinned institutions of marriage and household, Japanese society accommodates - and in the case of males, even indulges - a diversity of sexual behaviors. This tolerance is extended even to homosexual sex, which, although it is not to be spoken about, is easily available in Japan, where there is no legislation relating to sex between men or sex between women. Hence, many Japanese gay men resist the western notion of 'gay rights.' For instance, one gay man writes into a Japanese gay Internet BBS 'You can do whatever you want with regard to love and sex so why is it necessary to support "gay lib"?' Another man writes that 'being gay is basically a personal problem so I can't agree with gay-lib thinking.'" (quote from: Sexual Politics and Popular Culture in Modern Japan)

2) Australian anthropologist Mark McLelland: "Gay men commented that 'Japan has a very different history when it comes to discrimination ... I have never had to face termination of employment because I was gay ... I have never come across someone thrown in prison because he was gay ... there is no religious concept of homosexuality as a vice, drawing out a sense of self-contempt ... for me in Tokyo, subscribing to [the concept of 'gay rights'] is like carrying around someone else's baggage.'" (quote from: Male Homosexuality in Modern Japan)

3) Dutch anthropologist Wim Lunsing (important author, has worked _extensively_ with gay and lesbian groups in Japan): "Sexuality is not thought of so much in terms of what is right or wrong as it is in Anglo-American contexts, but rather as play, something people may engage in if they wish to do so. The lack of religious and legal sanctions against non-marital, non-vaginal sexual expression on the part of men makes sexuality difficult to politicize." (quote from: Japan: Finding its Way, in The Global Emergence of Gay and Lesbian Politics)

For those of you with an interest in the subject who would like to further research it and wonder where to start reading, these are my recommendations:

1) Wim Lunsing -- Beyond Common Sense: Negotiating Constructions of Sexuality and Gender in Contemporary Japan, London: Kegan Paul International, 1999

2) M. McLelland -- Male Homosexuality in Modern Japan: Cultural Myths and Social Realities, Richmond: Curzon Press, 2000

3) Wim Lunsing -- Japan: Finding its Way, in The Global Emergence of Gay and Lesbian Politics: Nationwide Imprints of a Worldwide Movement, ed. Barry Adam et al., Philadelphia: Temple University Press, 1999

4) Steven Pinkerton and Paul Abramson -- Japan, in Sociolegal Control of Homosexuality: a Multi-Nation Comparison, ed. Donald West and Richard Green, New York and London: Plenium Press, 1997.

(Nemo, 02:02, 6 December 2006) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 190.64.0.68 (talk • contribs).

I am very glad that you responded, and will leave the actual assessment of your research to those more knowledgable than I (though it looks sound). Meanwhile, thank you very much for your contributions, and please read over Wikipedia's guidelines on discussion pages and consensus. Since we couldn't get any word from you about the edits, we were all sure they were simple vandalism. Glad to see that wasn't the case! --Masamage 04:19, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, thank you for posting this information. We continue to seek sourcing for this page and if you could do that on the article itself it would be very helpful. (Especially on the statement about discrimination, since it does seem rather dubious.) Kyaa the Catlord 06:08, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Sourcing?

There is a vast literature on the subject of sexuality and society in Japan. I mentioned before four very good sources, but I can easily list twenty or thirty more books if wider reference material is needed.

Or are you talking about some sort of Wiki mechanics? (which, I admit, I'm not good at - editing texts is about the only thing I have ever done...)

(Nemo, 14:30, 6 December 2006) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 190.64.9.52 (talk) 16:35, 6 December 2006 (UTC).

Yeah, posting texts is good, but in order to remove the annoying tags, we need to include sources for the statements directly. Unfortunately, WP:OR ties our hands. I've been doing research trying to back up this article, but... to be honest, I don't have the time to do it myself. I have to admit, I love that dubious tag that Masamage used, I need to remember that one. (This article is a mess and has been from way before most of us showed up. Someone did a lot of work, but left it without any real documentation.) Kyaa the Catlord 17:13, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I just discovered that myself. :) Clearly the best part is that it provides a direct link to the talk page! --Masamage 19:46, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree, I wouldn't have thought of coming here to the talk page if it wasn't for that link.

(Nemo, 20:05, 6 December 2006) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 190.64.23.165 (talk) 22:04, 6 December 2006 (UTC).

Your evidence cited does not support the absolute statement "On the other hand, homosexuals who do marry a person of the other gender, even if they are out, even if they also have same sex lovers, are not discriminated in any way." maybe it depends on your definition of discrimination. Are you just limiting it to workplace discrimination? Or bigotry and discrimination in general? I posted before that I lived in japan and personally witnessed feelings of extreme revulsion from japanese from such a supposed "homosexual" act as adult females holding hands. To me this is the same illogical hatred expressed by Americans that we might call "discrimination" in the US. I know you can't cite personal research or whatever but my personal experience does not hold with you claims of absolute non discrimination. Back to the evidence you posted above, the first one says that it is only "tolerated" and "not to be talked about", the second merely says that there is no political or workforce discrimination, the third again says no legal discrimination. The statment in question however seems to (perhaps inadverdently) promote a utopian homosexual vision of the state of sexuality in Japan. On first reading I thought the statment was basically saying that there was "no bigotry towards homosexuals in Japan", for which i see no evidence. wikipedia says that "To discriminate socially is to make a distinction between people on the basis of class or category without regard to individual merit. Examples of social discrimination include racial, religious, sexual, sexual orientation, disability, ethnic, height-related, and age-related discrimination." since your information seems to indicate that homosexuality is not talked about (and therefore taboo?) it seems that there is some form distinction being made between people without regard to individual merit. I propose the sentence be altered to clarify that this is legal discrimination you are talking about. 128.62.214.145 22:07, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree - discrimination comes in many forms. It still needs clarifying as to what kinds of discrimination a heterosexual marriage will protect a homosexual from in Japan. - Malkinann 02:46, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Too much detail, way beyond the scope of this article.

Whoever is interested in that level of detail should just look at the sources.

(Nemo, 14:35, 9 December 2006) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 190.64.10.148 (talk) 14:47, 9 December 2006 (UTC).

As it is, this page contradicts Homosexuality in Japan - perhaps you'd like to edit that page next. A fuller treatment of the protection that is hinted at here would be appropriate there. - Malkinann 22:35, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

No need for me to intervene. A number of good friends and colleagues of mine take good care of that page. :)

(Nemo, 02:35, 10 December 2006) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 190.64.3.146 (talk) 02:29, 10 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Not Verified Tag

Well, the latest discussion had very good results, as now the whole article have sources and references.

Because of that, I assume that it is safe to remove the Not Verified Tag, don't you think? If nobody contradict this, I'll do it in short time. If someone is completely sure that I'm right, s/he can do it by him/herself. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Alexlayer (talk • contribs) 22:14, 6 December 2006 (UTC).

Yeah, I think at twelve references we're looking pretty good. Anything left over should just get a {{fact}} tag of its own so that we know exactly what needs sourcing. --Masamage 05:00, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Since I placed the tag, it makes sense that I remove it. Kyaa the Catlord 07:06, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Still wishful thinking

I finally just removed Futari wa Pretty Cure myself. I was hoping someone would come along who would be able to go over the entire list instead of just removing one that I happened to know was wrong. Futari wa Pretty Cure features girls who are friends. Friends. They are presented in a context which many people choose to interpret as shoujo-ai, but this is not official in any way whatsoever.

I emphatically request that everyone else take a look at the "Non-hentai anime and manga with stories that include some yuri or shoujo-ai" section, check for shows you're familiar with, and remove any that don't belong there.

Also, the comment is simply evidence that I need to stop editing in the morning. --Andrusi 16:22, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "stories that include some yuri or shoujo-ai" section

Wait... Naruto? What the hell? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by IguanarayD: (talk • contribs) 12:57, 25 December 2006 (UTC).

I second that... 208.124.30.214 06:27, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

See what I mean? --Andrusi 15:42, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

I'd also argue against Bleach, Fushigi Yuugi and Magic Knight Rayearth. IIRC, none of them has lesbians. --84.63.26.231 18:23, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Soi Fong isn't a lesbian? Chizuru isn't a lesbian? Seriously. Have you seen Rayearth2? Nova's definately got some shoujo ai "issues".... And Yui in Fushigi Yuugi's response is a bit intense to be nothing but a broken "friendship". Kyaa the Catlord 07:12, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Oh, Nova. I had totally forgotten her, being an anime-only character. Anyway, I never pictured her relationship with Hikaru as lesbian love. After all, she IS just Hikaru's dark side. The whole "I love you" thing is more of a mind game she plays with Hikaru, IMO. She kisses Lantis, too, after all.

It's been a while since I watched Fushigi Yuugi, but I didn't get yuri vibes from Yui. Not to mention that Miaka is totally fallen for Tamahome and wouldn't even notice ^^

As for Bleach, well, Chizuru has the hots for Inoue, but the most that happens is the occasional glomp (always cut short by Tatsuki pounding her). Besides she's, like, the least important character in the whole series. Whether Soi Fong's feelings for Yoruichi - deep though they may be - are really of the romantical kind has not even been stated - the interpretation is viable (and probable, considering the fandom), but not compelling.

Eventually, it comes down to how "inclusive" you want the list to be. The above series, even though you might argue that they show signs of shoujo-ai, are nowhere comparable in this respect to, say, Sailor Moon or El-Hazard, which feature actual lesbian couples. If you ask me, even Cardcaptor Sakura contains more (and people have argued that CCS doesn't really have any shoujo-ai at all)... --84.63.20.148 18:57, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

"Some" shoujo ai. Sounds pretty inclusive. Kyaa the Catlord 15:05, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

"Some shoujo-ai" is "some shoujo-ai," not "a lesbian character" (Chizuru is a great example of this point), and certainly not "a character who might maybe be a lesbian if you interpret certain scenes the way I do." Wikipedia is not an H-doujinshi (though that would be awesome). --Andrusi 01:45, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

If you have a character who is seeking a romance with one of the primary characters in the show, that shows some shoujo-ai to me... Kyaa the Catlord 05:08, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

"Seeking a romance" might be a quite liberal interpretation of Chizuru's actions, but I'll concede the point. However, I do think that Nova's "shoujo-ai issues" are not actual shoujo-ai at all, but purely symbolic (being a Rayearth fan, I'd gladly discuss this matter further, but this page is not the right place); and I still don't see any shoujo-ai in Yui's and Miaka's relationship, either. --84.63.61.192 15:24, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

There's also some stuff between Orihime and Rukia, also Orihime and Rangiku later in the manga. It's mostly silly fanservice but, it's there. --Iguanaray

Is there enough shoujo-ai content to warrant X/1999 being listed? I know the series pretty well (manga, movie, and show), and I really don't think it belongs on the list. I mean, I'm all for a comprehensive shoujo-ai / yuri listing, but if the series doesn't have enough content to warrant being listed, it's best not to mis-direct people...

LainEverliving LainEverloving 06:40, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm, I seem to remember that two of the female dragons sharing a bed.... Kyaa the Catlord 06:44, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Really? Wow, I didn't remember that at all! But, if you say so, that's fine.LainEverliving LainEverloving 05:57, 7 March 2007 (UTC)