Talk:Novi vordes

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Contents 1 Sienties 2 Cisi/disi 3 Reciprocal 4 (Hyper)link 5 Pixel 6 Lingues

[edit] Sienties

Exista li vordes pro li sienties? Aliter 20:38, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Novial Lexike kontena multi nomes de sienties. Nus besona kelki noves kel non es in NL ma fortunosim li majoritate es evidenti fro li latinidi e germani lingues. Nun BRG e me studia li probleme del nomes del kemial elementes. Nov ialiste 21:54, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Ya, me did trova li vordes, jus nun, mar ordinarim sin tranduktes. De Chefi pagine me non trova: Ekologia - Ekonomia - Agrikulture - Injenieria - Informatike - Komputal sientie. Novi? Aliter 01:17, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Some of these are neologisms which I made. "Injenieria" is from NL "injeniere" (engineer), thus meaning the domain of engineers by analogy with such pairs as "filosofe", "filosiofia" etc. "Ekonomia" is in NL. I think the others you quote are neologisms. This is why I made the page for new words. So that we have a record of new words and can track what others are doing and where necessary make different suggestions and discuss. I try to use NL vocabulary as far as is reasonably possible but some new words are needed. I just made a list for the signs of the Zodiac. See what you think. Nov ialiste 01:48, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

• Ekonomia : Pardona me.
• Agrikulture, Injenieria : komprendad.
• Ekologia : Non es logia/logike de eko.
• Informatike, Komput- (-al sientie) : nove.

Aliter 01:00, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Ekologia: naturalisme. Plu bon sugestiones?

Informatike: naturalisme.

Komput- on nove ma util vorde. Komputa, komputatione, komputere, komputal.Nov ialiste 01:43, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

"Komputa"? Prega, skripta li traduktiones an li ensiklopedie-pagine. Aliter 21:16, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cisi/disi

NL: cis(i) F ce, cette (-ci), E this, D dieser | dise (-o, -a) F celui (-ci), E this man (woman), D dieser (Mensch) | disum F ceci, E this (ntr.), D dies(es) | disdi F aujourd'hui, E to-day, D heute.

Dise es li Wikipedie in Novial. mar Cisi Wikipedie es in Novial., o? Aliter 01:17, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't find "cis" in the copy of NL I took from the internet. In fact in Novial as described in AIL(1928) and NL(1930) there is no letter "c" only the digraph "ch", since it is phonetically spelt. Where did you find "cis"? Nov ialiste 01:40, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

It might be a typing error: c and d are next to each other on the keyboard. Dise and disum are in your list: they are regularly derived from dis(i). Nov ialiste 01:58, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

C??? Aliter, veka! Inter "diriga" e "dis-". Es skripte-erore. (Qui es li pagine vor vu did trova NL?)~

Interretal paginaro de Blahedo, sitat in li angli novial artikle. Nov ialiste 01:43, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Anke me. Regarda D.txt, inter "diriga" e "dis-". Aliter 20:26, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes. skripte-erore. Nov ialiste 22:32, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reciprocal

Me proposi:

Verbe: resiproka

Verbal substantives: resiprokatione, resiproko

Adjektives: resiprokal; resiprokanti

Nov ialiste 20:28, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

What would exactly be the distinction between "resiprokatione" and "resiproko"?

None that I'm aware of. Reciprocating, reciprocation as actions.

For the adjective (which is what I actually needed for my article on Lars Onsager) "resiprokal" is most naturalistic, but "resiproki" seems to accord with more of what J. did in NL. (Agreed, he's not always been consistent!)-- BRG 20:35, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

ROOT-i means an adjective such that the thing described *is* ROOT. Like virji/virga - virgin/a virgin. We can usefully take as a verbal root "resiprok-" from which the verb, verbal noun and adjective follow regularly as I proposed, like others in NL. Nov ialiste 21:30, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Retrovert- ? Aliter 20:26, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Anglim "retrovert" signifika "vada retro" (a antei stando). "Reciprocate" signifika repetit vado retro a devanu. Nov ialiste 22:40, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Me aksepta ke "retrovert-" es erori, ma "vado retro a devanu"? Qui direktione vada vada retro e a devanu? Aliter

"Back and forth". As I understand it the verb "reciprocate" contains the idea of something in one direction and the opposite direction. Like giving and taking. When I said "repeated" I had in mind a reciprocating engine which is a piston engine: the piston goes in one direction and then back in the opposite direction repeatedly. But repetition is not essential in reciprocation, just one way and then the other. I hope I understood your question. Nov ialiste 21:45, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] (Hyper)link

Me proposi: (hiper)lige (fro NL). (NL ligestreke = hyphen.) Nov ialiste 20:31, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't like "lige" for link. "Lige" is defined in NL as "league" (or in German, "Bund") -- a collection of things joined together. This is not what a link is. I've been using "kuplure"; "kuplatu(m)" might work, or some other ideas. But "lige" is certainly not right. -- BRG 20:38, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

NL gives "ligestreke" as meaning a hyphen. It seems reasonable

therefore to use "lige" in the sense of something which joins 2

things, i.e. a link, as in that compound word. The derived verb is

"liga" which NL translates as "attach" or "bind", same idea. In what senses do you take league?

"League" to me, as I said earlier, is a collection of people, companies, etc. that is joined together. (sports leagues, the League of Nations, etc.) It is not the thing that joins them together, though "lig-" with some appropriate suffix might work. (James Chandler, I think, suggested "ligile," but a tool is not what this is. "Ligere" might work if you need the "lig-" root. -- BRG 13:39, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Does it have to be the agent that joins them together? If it's the agent, is it also the product of a past action (and not the agent). NL gives the verb "liga" as meaning attach or bind, which do not necessarily have the social or political connotations of "league" (and neither does "ligestreke", hyphen). The tool suffix is in fact "-ilo".

I avoided "lige" in the first place because "league" suggested a special link, but the verbs and ligestreke suggest it may not be so restrictive. Nov ialiste 15:25, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

How would you translate "link" of a chain? Nov ialiste 15:25, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

"Lige" also offers some degree of naturalism.

So how would you translate "link" as in a link in a chain? Nov ialiste 21:34, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

"Lig*" unisa li partes. "Kupl*" les konekte. Aliter ("Konekt*"? ) Aliter 01:00, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Dunke, ob kupl- es li maxim bon radike por "link"? Quu vu prefera: kuplatu(m), kuplure, kuplo o kelku altri? Qualim vu vud tradukte angli "link of a chain"? Nov ialiste 01:43, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Aliter. "Kupl-" is better. I've used "kuplure" but I can accept "kuplatu(m)" though "kuplo" is certainly not right; the -o words in AIL denote the action, not the result of, or means for, the action. There are probably other suffixes that could be used, as well. -- BRG 13:39, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Why do you insist that a hyperlink has to be an end product of a past event? It's an address which points somewhere and allows one to pass to that address. I treat your bold words as shouting: you are emotional which is unsuited to careful and patient consideration of different possibilities. Nov ialiste 14:29, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I've never insisted that "a hyperlink has to be an end product of a past event." As I said earlier, I can see a link as the "result of" or the "means for" the connection. I cannot see it, however, as being the whole collection of all the linked pages (which "lige" would imply to me) or the actual process of connecting (which "kuplo" would imply).

My use of bold is not a sign of emotionality. In writing, sometimes one needs to emphasize something, however. I think I'm being quite rational. There is a logic in AIL + NL even if Jespersen did not follow it totally consistently, and consequently a form has a meaning that can be deduced from its constituent morphemes, and I think that to go contrarily to this logic is undesirable.

I'm certainly not opposed to "careful and patient consideration of different possibilities." In fact I've proposed two forms ("ligere" and my preferred "kuplure") and seconded the proposal of another person ("kuplatu(m)") as alternatives, while suggesting that we might look at other suffixes that could be productive here. I've simply pointed out that two proposals that have been made do not mean what we want, if the morpheme meanings given in Jespersen's books are followed. -- BRG 15:37, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

In efforts to avoid "kuplo" (which is what I've been using so far) the following have been suggested: the means for, the agent, or the end result.

Consider this relationship:

agent -> action (with means) -> end result

Li kuplere kupla les per li kuplilo e li resulte es li kuplatu.

What's this all about? A coupler, coupling, coupling-gadget, then the coupled. What do they have in common? The process of coupling, the verbal noun. Ergo "kuplo".

Neither "kuplure", "kuplere", "kuplilo" nor "kuplatu" offers naturalism (and neither does "kuplo"), but they are longer and more stringent in sense. I suggest that the verbal noun "kuplo" encompasses all without being especially stringent. It is also not unnecesarily long. Nov ialiste 15:45, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

QUOTE: I'm certainly not opposed to "careful and patient consideration of different possibilities." In fact I've proposed two forms ("ligere" and my preferred "kuplure") and seconded the proposal of another person ("kuplatu(m)") as alternatives, while suggesting that we might look at other suffixes that could be productive here. I've simply pointed out that two proposals that have been made do not mean what we want, if the morpheme meanings given in Jespersen's books are followed. (BRG)

I listed "kuplatu(m)", because its sense is similar to "kuplure". Is "what we want" a Royal we? Nov ialiste 15:50, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

No, "we" means the Novial community, such as it is. -- BRG 15:41, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Kuplione? Aliter 20:26, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Me konkorda ke "lig-" non es maxim bon radike. "Kupl-" sembla es bon radike. Li questione es qui forme? Li sufixes "-ure" e "-ilo" es rari in novial es Jespersen dikted ke es ofte altri alternatives. "Kuplatu" es longi, ledi e nonnatural.

Me hesita introdukte nonnesesarim novi radikes: es ja pluri kun signifikatione de "kuplo, konektione" in NL: konekte, kupla, liga, unisa e junkte exemplim. Pro disu me vud hesita introdukte "linke", quankam li germani lingues suporta lu. Nus anke besona verbe "to (hyper)link".

Ob li novi substantive (ma non novi radike) "kuple" vud serva?

substantive: kuple - link

verbe: kupla - to link

verbal substantive: kuplo - linking

kom, exemplim:

substantive: brose - (a) brush

verbe: brosa - to brush

verbal substantive: broso - brushing

Forsan "kuple" vud anke signifika "a link" plu generalim (ob vud es nur un o pluri kuples, kom in katene). ~~

"Kuple" might have the problem of generating a "false friend" (suggesting "couple"). But it has some things going for it:

1. It's short, which seems to be a factor that Nov ialiste values
2. It uses the "kupl-" root, which I think all three of us that have engaged in this discussion prefer
3. It doesn't conflict (as "lige" would) with an existing word in NL
4. Unlike the -o ending (which does have an explicit meaning, given in AIL, as I pointed out) the relationship between -e nouns and -a verbs is very flexible, and would not be stretched beyond what already exists in AIL/NL

I don't think the argument that "-ure" is rare cuts much ice with me. Any affix that J. introduces is fair game in my mind, as long as it is used with the meaning given to it in AIL or NL. But it looks as if "kuple," though inferior in my mind to some other constructions, seems most likely to achieve consensus. -- BRG 15:41, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I didn't think of "kuple" possibly being taken to mean couple, like a pair. So I'm less keen on that now. "Link" and "couple" will be needed in other senses such as in mathematics and engineering. This is why I ask about "link of a chain", as solving that word might help us. I'm now wondering whether we could usefully introduce "linke" but it might be best to examine the various uses of the words "link" and "couple" and pin down the translations simultaneously to avoid any unforseen later diificulties. Nov ialiste 09:27, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pixel

Naturalisme sugeste ke "pixele" vud es li novial vorde (DEFSPI). Pixele, pixela, pixelat(i), pixelatione. Ma quu es "pixie"? Nov ialiste 01:56, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

No problem with "pixele." Why would "pixie" even be relevant, though? Even in NL, there are similar, but unrelated words thrown together by the chance similarity of words in the source languages. -- BRG 13:43, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

It isn't relevant it's just a similar sounding word and I wondered what the translation might be. Nov ialiste 14:38, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

"Pixie"? Aliter 20:26, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

 :)Haha. I mentioned pixie being light-hearted when pixel made me think of it. Would have to check NL first in case there are suitable roots. My translation of the "Finnish Ancient Beliefs" had some tricky word like that. I'll have to look at in again to see what I wrote. Nov ialiste 23:01, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Anglum "hyperlink es Frisum "keppeling". Fy "Keppel" = nov "Kupl-" = en "Coupl-". Qui es "-ing"? Aliter 18:58, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lingues

Prega, regarda fransum e germanum. Aliter 20:26, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Me omnitem konsulta li basal lingues: anglum (E), germanum (D), fransum (F), italianum (I), spanum (S) e portugalum (P) si me pove. Altres anke segun poveso. Nov ialiste 23:05, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, ma kom NL me adi F e G an pagine "Novi vordes". Prega, dar regarda lumes. (Spanum es S? Quum es H?) Aliter 21:16, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Naturim. Me intented adi plu multi lingues. Me pensad pri li abreviationes in NL. Jespersen usad:

     D = German (Deutsch).
     E = English.
     F = French.
     I = Italian.
     L = Latin.
     P = Portuguese.
     Po= Polish.
     R = Russian.
     S = Spanish.
     Sc= Scandinavian. 

     Esp = Esperanto.
     N = Novial.
     Occ = Occidental.

Nov ialiste 21:51, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Me pensa H es spanum in NL. Aliter 18:58, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes. Nov ialiste 12:51, 26 October 2006 (UTC)