Vakyarimata:Sherutni patrin - शेरुत्नि पात्रीन

De la Vikipidiya

Kana varekon lekhavel (ramol) vareso kathe mishto si te thol ~~~~ ko agor te dikhel pes kon thai kana kerdyas o teksto.

Ander 1 official press contact 2 Congratulations 3 Dictionary 4 Alphabet 5 Improper terms 6 Article request 7 Communication and credibleness issues ("credibility", is what the author meant to say) 8 I am absolutely utterly confused 9 Modship. 10 Translation help 11 Question about Latin/Devanagari 12 An experience 13 Romany? 14 Transliteration 15 Devanagari is NOT used for Romani.

[editisar] official press contact

Is there anyone who wants to be the official press contact for this language, in the odd case anyone from the press wants to talk to a contributor to this project? If so, contact me at en:user:zanimum. -- Zanimum 18:56, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

[editisar] Congratulations

Congratulations to the Roma community on the opening of this new Wikipedia!

I wish you great success!--Amire80 12:52, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

[editisar] Dictionary

Are you aware of any (free) online dictionaries that could help one understand texts written in Romani (or transliterations of spoken Romani texts)? -- 86.120.225.27 22 April 2006 18:25 (UTC)

Please watch the articles linked in the "In other language" section at Romani ćhib.

At en:Romani language#External links you can find Romani - English Dictionary etc. Gangleri · T · m: Th · T

[editisar] Alphabet

Of the many absurd alphabets invented for Romani shib, devanagari is the most absurd and unsuitable of all!!! Fortunately, Roma will never use it!!! - Kadava biprinjardo lekhavipen si katar 82.48.126.90

You seem to be very determined! :-) Can you explain your ideas?

I paste here an answer that I gave to other passing confused visitor, hoping it helps:

This wiki is in generic, standardized Romani. Some fact about it you find in the article Romani ćhib or in English here. It is not the Vlax Romani dialect; a small example would be that the name of the language is pronounced in the Vlax dialects Romani shib.

As for the Devanagari script, it has a degree of use less than the Latin. At the beginning, the main ways to acquire and to desire to use it were in the process of studying the Romani in the Indo-Aryan context, also through the adding in the standardized form of neologisms from the Indo-Aryan languages, mainly Hindi and when studying the cultural similarities between the Desi/South Asian people and Roma. As for the formal use of Devanagari, by now there are two opinions: those who think that its use would make problems in Europe (that it could target us as aliens) and those who think that it is worthy to write like this because it is the most fitting writing system for a Indo-Aryan language, it is the way our ancestors wrote (and a tradition to write otherwise didn't appear).

In this wiki there are allowed to be used all the variants of Latin alphabet used for the Romani, see Romano lekhipen, when there will be more users we will have a debate about the variant to be mainly used. Desiphral 9 May 2006 16:01 (UTC)

Do you want that illiteracy among Roma increase or decrease? For actual Romany pronunciation, as it is now, after centuries in Europe, devanagari is utterly unsuitable. Roma people throughout the world know only two alphabets, and it's better they learn correct Romani shib in one of them: Latin or Cyrillic (as Roma from Russia and other Slavic countries write using this alphabet). However, Roma will never use devanagari, unless your attempt is that only two or three Roma in the whole world are able to write... (not to say that the largest majority of people dwelling in India don't know even to read...) On the other side, the standard (or at least the most common) Romany is Kalderashitsko (wrongly called "Vlax", that means exactly "non-Rom"); however, the language used here is close to it and understandable, except for the foreign terms introduced artificially from Hindi. - Kadava biprinjardo lekhavipen si katar 82.48.126.90

You present some points of view which are possible to appear again from other visitors. So, I'd like to give a detailed answer regarding these issues. Until now the Latin, Cyrillic or Greek alphabets were used sporadically and mostly for orientation in the non-Romani world. The learning, the habit and the necessity of using a writing system comes practicing a culture. There was plenty of time in the 800 years of Romani presence in Europe to be engaged in the cultural ethos managed through Latin, Cyrillic or Greek. Now some of us have acces through the modern telecommunication systems to a cultural space that makes our worldview understadable, that gives us tools to be culturally creative. The desire to be a cultured Rom and to remain in the Romani culture in the same time, finally seems to have a solution.

On the other hand, it looks like, as you found this wiki, I'm sorry to say that you developed a strong bias against Devanagari, maybe for you personal reasons (since you came with a preconceived idea and afterwards you tried to prove it with unsustainble claims). It is easy to say that Devanagari is not fitted for Romani in a context where many possible readers (at this moment) don't know what's that "Devanagari". So I'm asking you: do you know to write in Devanagari? In this particular case it seems it is necessary to make available for the public opinion the facts that sustain the claim that Devanagari is "physically" fitting Romani and I will try to do it in the future, to remove this accusation. Also you present the situation as if Devanagari would be "imposed", while you may see that in this wiki, the Latin script has the first place. It is NOT imposed. I really have the intention to make contributions for a workable Romani wiki and I think the present arrangemet enhances the chances. If Devanagari will be used on large scale, this will come through Roma who will express better their creativity through the cultural items vehiculated by Devanagari. Besides the cultural stuff, the language itself requires Devanagari. A serious study of this language comes along with the other Indo-Aryan languages, in order to understand it's structure. Moreover, there are necessary neologisms to be borrowed from other Indo-Aryan languages to make Romani usable in every circumstance. In this case, I think that you or other person would say: why not to borrow from the European ones from the close proximity? The answer is that the Indo-Aryan are better suited, make more sense. An example: at the beginning of the 20th century the Jewish people brought back Hebrew to everyday use (status lost approx. 2500 years ago). They had to borrow many things from Arabic language even though they had such a serious conflict with the Arab people.

And finnaly, I hope that maybe a better knowledge of the facts will decrease the use of this imperative attitude not sustained by real facts. The fact that people don't know too much about Roma should not give them free way for all kind of speculations and expresions of biased opinions towards non-Europen people (what did you mean by " the largest majority of people dwelling in India don't know even to read"?, also the overall tone).Desiphral 10 May 2006 00:21 (UTC)

I'll just spend few words: In this modern world, all languages are trying to find a standard Latin writing system for their own language, in order to internationalize it (for example, pinyin Chinese). Even Turkish changed into Latin alphabet, although they had to add several diacritics. They had adopted Arabic alphabet previously, but their original writing was Runic. To write Romany in devanagari is like Turkish or Hungarian or Swedish should go backwards to Runic just because it was their original writing. And as final result, besides being nonsensical (and that anyway Roma will never adopt such a writing) it's more useful that Roma become first literate in their own context, instead of trying to learn an odd writing system they've never seen in their whole life. I'm just saying that it's an idle effort, without any outcome at all.

Distorted presentation. You compare defunct writing systems with the lively Devanagari, to cast a bad image. Your words are quite strange when they are about the Indian Subcontinent. Either you have a low self-esteem or you are a Gajo/-i who learned some Romani words, desperately trying to preserve the exotic, fictional image of the Roma. Desiphral 15 May 2006 18:56 (UTC)

Devanagari is an alive writing system for another language, not for Romany. There is no Rom in the world who writes using Devanagari, therefore, it's a violence against Romany shib to impose Devanagari as a writing system, in the same way as it would be a violence to impose Hiragana or any other system which Roma don't use.

P.S. It's just coming to my mind how many Romane singers have songs in Hindi in their repertoire, or Gandhi Romani High School in Pécs (Hungary) and another one in Zvolen (Slovakia). I am aware of the seeds for another debate about the poorly covered area of the relationships between Roma and other Desi, so I want to remember that the borrowing of cultural items does not mean anything specifically (see the above case of Hebrew and Arabic). Desiphral 15 May 2006 19:01 (UTC)

It's evident that the gadjo is you, as a Rom would never offend another Rom by assuming what you have assumed. I have a high self-esteem of me and of my people, and I'm jealous of the language purity which you are trying to undermine. "Some Romani words", it seems that it's you who have learnt them, and are trying to replace the terms you don't know with those of Hindi, a totally foreign language for us. I'm willing to teach you all the Romany terms you ignore, if you are enough honest to admit that you don't know them. About your mention of Roma singing in Hindi, thera are many more who sing in Spanish, Russian, German, French, English, etc. What does it mean? For one Rom who sings in Hindi you want to offcialize Hindi, in spite of thousands Roma singing in other langages? Hindi is as foreign for Roma as any other Gadjikanes language is. The fact is that Roma cannot communicate with Hindi-speakers if both of them speak their own language. You cannot deny this, no matter how much you effort to impose your theory.

[editisar] Improper terms

Reading a little within this so-called Romany edition of Wikipedia, I find that the authors, very probably "Gadje" - or else following the policy of some Gadje - are trying to damage our language by replacing Romany terms with Hindi words, which they suppose should be the original ones. What they are doing is like taking away the Latin terms from English and replacing them with Old Anglo-Saxon, or taking away the Arabic-derived terms from Spanish and inserting Latin words instead, and so on. This is quite an improper use of the language. In few words, this edition, as it is now, is issued in an unknown language with some Romany influences, mixed with Hindi... - Kadava biprinjardo lekhavipen si katar 82.48.126.90

Now you really have something against this wiki. Previously you said it is understandable, now you find it "unknown". I wrote something in the section from above about the borrowings. Aditionally, to clarify the issue you presented, as the Romani linguist Yanko le Rejosko and the others write, there are the words aquired after the separations of groups from Anatolia onwards that make problems in the communication between groups. In the teaching system of Romani from Romania and other countries, there are used on linguistic bases neologisms from Indo-Aryan languages, as in every Romani group there is the pride of having a pure language, without unnecessary Gajikane elements. And replying to another fact of your erroneus and unfriendly points of view, for the knowledge of other possible readers, there are not Hindi elements "which they suppose should be the original ones". I wrote (and I think this enhances the quality of this wiki) for every entry (where I knew the origin) if it is an originally Indo-Aryan or Greek or English word, providing the word in the source-language. The same for the neologisms, I wrote the origin (otherwise, maybe you wouldn't know it is Hindi). Do they replace Romani words? Never. They are employed when different dialects use words form local languages. If you speak Romani do you know a word for "island"? No, it was not very necessary until now. As for the fact that you vehemently think you represent Roma and the authors don't, kana san rom, soske jas mashkar gajende te roves lenge? Kana roma kamen te keren vareso lachho, tu kushes len, anglunes, pervones na das duma lenca te xalyares so si kathe thai te keres vi tu lachhe butya te aven sa le roma loshale?

If you will answer, please note that I will not be on-line for a few days to give a possible reply, as it seems I am compelled to answer (until some things will be explained) to this kind of statements who profit from the overall lack of knowledge about this issues among people. Desiphral 9 May 2006 21:03 (UTC)

I said it's understandable except the Hindi intrusions, which after having viewed these pages better, I found to be too many and not existing in any Romany dialect. A pure invention. On the other side, there are Romany words which are understandable, but having changed their meaning or applied in the wrong way. To point out just an example: you wrote "patrin", which means "leaf", not "page" or "sheet". The correct word is "lil". Amende si vorba te phenás "island", numa amburi chi tu chi e kolaver zhene ke ramon kathe prinzharen la. O bayo si ke kado webthan si ramome gazhendar, na romendar. Kon si e Rom ke tu mothos ke ramon vareso kathe? Kaske me akushlem? Me zhanav de chachés ke te ramovas vi me vareso romanes shukar, sar si e shib e chachí, si te xolyavon le gazhe, sar keren sagda kana o rom zhanel mai but lendar...

On the other hand, it's also idle to attempt to change the Romany words established in each group, they'll hardly adopt the terms from another group, or an arbitrarily created term. Te zhanes le Rom, musai zhanes kado. Will you attempt to unify Russian, Czech, Slovenian, Serbian, etc. into one single Slavic language artificially? Each one of them is "pure" language. Each romanes is "pure" romanes for the group which speaks it. And also Hindi is "gadjikanes", in the same way as any other language, so it's nonsensical to take neologisms from Hindi when no Rom in the world uses such terms. About the fact that you are not trying to impose a Hindi term to replace the Romany one, is not true, and I quote an example: "Ek lekh (vai artikolo) si ek kotor tekstosko so anderyarel, kiderel janglimata pe ek buti, umal. O lav si nevo, lino andar i hindi ćhib". Not only the word "lekh" is an invention, never used in any Romani group, but also the term "lav" is. "Word" in Romany is not "lav", but "vorba", "divano", "svato", and other less used terms. Neologisms do exist in Romany, and each group has its own ones, which belong to the Romany language or dialect, and there's no need of introducing alien terms from a gadjikani language as Hindi, which Roma don't know at all.- Kadava biprinjardo lekhavipen si katar 82.48.200.135

PS: In Romany it's "anglusitsko", not "anglikani" shib.

"Lav" is a Romano word with wide expansion. In Belarus there is a Romani publication named Romano Lav or another one in former Czechoslovakia, Lačho lav.

You are using a dialectal term limited to a reduced and defined area to impose it over the most widespread terms allover the world. Of course, the number of Roma in Belarus is negligible, and one of the several Romany groups in Slovakia is not to prevail over the largest majority not only in Slovakia but in the whole world. And what about your invention lekh? Which Roma do use it?

Anglusitsko, anglikani, anglezikani? All of them exist, it is not yet a well established variant. Desiphral 15 May 2006 19:04 (UTC)

If you con't know which is the established variant, don't deny that there is one. I see that you are against Kalderashitsko, which is the most widespread Romany, and the one in which most Romany texts have been written in different countries. You are giving misinformation, establishing as "standard" the terms used by a reduced group of Roma which you seem to be familiar with, but which don't represent the largest majority of Roma worldwide.

In most dialects lil means "book" and patrin (which has a bigger semantic area) or rig are used for "page". Desiphral 15 May 2006 20:17 (UTC)

False: lil is never used for book, which is "klishka". Lil means, "page", "letter", "paper", "document", "ID". Patrin means "leaf", never "paper" or "page". Rig means "side", sometimes used also as "place" in opposition to another place (in this sense, one may say about a piece of paper "bolde pe kaver rig", meaning "turn it into the other side", therefore, tacitly meaning also page). Who taught you Romany? It's evident that neologisms and many words commonly used by millions of Roma are unknown by you.

Dear 82.48.126.90,

I have read your posts above, and I am mostly in agreement with you on a basic level. However I would draw somewhat less hostile conclusions. It is, I believe, as Desiphral wrote... some Rom who now have the means, desire to be culturally creative within the context of their own culture. Of course... this cultural creativity is a double-edged blade... in turning to an unorthodox writing system, or adopting hypothetical "original romani" words from Hindi, the language certainly does become less accessible to the average Rom.

Where exactly did you find 'hypothetical "original romani" words from Hindi'? Desiphral 15 May 2006 18:54 (UTC)

I would argue though that while it is important to bring up the points you brought up, ultimately in the context of Wikipedia it is less useful to verbally spar with people, and more useful to actually create new content that fits what you yourself feel Romani Shib actually is.

Desiphral did state that there intends to be no linguistic dictatorship over the language and alphabet use, and when enough users are acquired, such issues can be put up for vote. So why don't you become one of those users, and when the time comes (and even before) make your opinions heard and then make your vote count?

I am just starting to learn Kalderash, and look to the Romani wikipedia with the hope that it will provide me with practice material, and that eventually I will also be able to contribute. Of course, as mentioned, I am mostly on your side philosophically when it comes to language renewal--it should be the Roma doing it, not individual Rom, nor Gazhe. --70.49.167.106 11 May 2006 17:44 (UTC)

My vote is already given (I don't know if I'll be checking this page for long), and is NO. It's utterly wrong to introduce alien words which are not spoken by any Romani group. Would Wikipedia introduce Old Anglo-Saxon terms for those British who desire to be culturally creative within the context of their own culture? I don't think so. Romany language is not Latin, is a living tongue which evolves as any other living tongue, and introducing alien terms is not any contribution at all, but rather a violence against the language evolution. - Kadava biprinjardo lekhavipen si katar 82.48.203.187

It is a normal process happened to a lot of languages until now (of course, not in the distorted manner you presented). You think (theoretically, since you did not propose any concrete possible action for the impossible idea you assert) that it is possible a Wikipedia partly Kalderashitsko, partly Italian, to reflect the speech of some families. This only for those who opt for Standard Italian to express everything covered by an encyclopedia. Those using Italian dialects/languages would require a different wiki (only thinking about the Romani speaking Roma who are considered some of the best preservers of the Piedmontese language/dialect). And Kalderash is just one of the many Romani groups in Italy. Also, in this case, the Kalderash from France or other countries would require other encyclopedias with a touch of the local languages or dialects. Hundreds and hundreds of theoretical encyclopedias. What comes out is that the problem of borrowing neologisms is common for all Romani dialects: local ones or some to be understood by every speaker? In the latter case, the best options of source-languages seem to be the Indo-Aryan ones (especially Hindi and Sanskrit) and English. A good example is Hindi itself which evolved from the popular Hindustani, originally not used in official and elitist contexts (instead it was Persian and Urdu), but it became a language for every context with neologisms from Sanskrit and English. And finally, it is obvious that it is a matter of personal choice for a Romani speaker to opt for a category of neologisms or another. Desiphral 15 May 2006 18:58 (UTC)

What has Italian to do with all this? I find this exposition quite absurd, out of context and inaccurate. The attempt to introduce Hindi terms into Romany is a violence against our language, and the actual distortion is what you are presenting to justify such violence. I don't understand what you mean with "Kalderash from Italy" or "Kalderash from France", anyway, what you say here is quite inaccurate, as Kalderashitsko shib is the same in Italy, France, USA, Mexico, Russia, Brazil, Australia, South-Africa, etc. and all Kalderash Roma can perfectly understand each other no matter from which country we come - and even if there is any term (neologism) used by a group in a defined area, all the others are able to understand and need no explanation. On the other hand, Kalderashitsko is perfectly understood by other groups like Lovara, Churara, Machvaya, Moldovaya, etc. For example, the term used for "automobile", may vary from a region to other from the Romany "vurdon" to neologisms like "tymobli", "matora", "mobili", "litrika", "tmobila", but all Roma are able to understand what any of these terms mean. Of course, if you replace them with the Hindi term, no Rom in the world would know the meaning. That's a violence to our language, and an idle intention to impose an alien terminology - besides a misinformation for Gadje.

Yes, it's a personal choice, so you've chosen Hindi in the same way that you may have chosen Japanese, but none of them has nothing to do with the environment in which Romany has evolved into the present-day language. So, your personal choice is not to be considered valid since no Rom is using such neologisms today. Perhaps you intend to deport all Roma to India, so that we begin to use the neologisms you like...

[editisar] Article request

Hello. I'm wikipedia redactor from Poland. We have an action to make article about our city into all world languages. Becouse there is a lot of Roms in Poland, i want to ask you about translation article about en:Katowice into Romanian. Could You do some translation ? Just a few sentences (2-5). There is a source in english en:Katowice and if You want 40 other languages. Please help.

Best Regards

Stimoroll _Talk

I can do it in "Polskani Kalderashitsko", that is the Romany dialect spoken in Poland (namely, the standard Romany, as it's the most widespread "dialect" worldwide). However, you should have a little patience; we Roma are always travelling, and that's what I'm doing today and for a while...

PS: The second dialect most spoken in Poland is Lovaritsko, however, that is to be considered the "official" Romany for Hungary, and Kalderashitsko is the most suitable for Poland.

I don't know what version will be better, but i think that one that i can put into Romanian wikipedia. By the way, polish version article about Romanian langauge don't say anything about those dialects. Can You write something about it. I can tranlate it and put into polish wikipedia.

Best Regards

Stimoroll _Talk

Hi. Just to let you know that there is a difference between Romanian and Romani/Romany. Romanian, an Eastern Romance language, is the official language of Romania, and is spoken by ethnic Romanians. The Romanian Wikipedia is available at http://ro.wikipedia.org and there is already an article on ro:Katowice there. Romani, an Indo-Aryan language, is the language of the Roma people, which are a significant minority all over Europe, particularly in Central and Southeastern Europe. Romania, coincidentally, is the country with the largest Roma population in the world, even though Roma make up a higher proportion of the population in Slovakia and Bulgaria. Romani is also officially-recognised in several places, for example: Shuto Orizari municipality in Macedonia, the town of Budeşti/Budeshti in Romania, and it is also an official minority language of Sweden. "Polskani Kalderashitsko" is the Romani dialect that is spoken in Poland, while in Romania, the dialect spoken by the Roma minority is, as far as I know, as different type of Kalderash (there are about 600,000 Roma in Romania, if not more). In Czechia and Slovakia, yet another dialect is spoken, commonly known as Carpathian Romani.

The Polish Wikipedia has an article on the Romani language - at pl:Język cygański. Indeed, there is no detailed mention there about the Romani dialects. The English version of the article, at en:Romani language is much better. Also, note that "cygański", just like "gypsy", is an exonym and is not the preferred name when referring to the Roma people. I know that in Polish the Roma are reffered to as "Romowie", which is more corect than "Cyganie". Is there any way to model the language name based on this? For example, in Romanian (my native language), we say "Limba romani", in English we say "Romani language", in Czech we say "Romština". The native name of the Romani language is "Romani ćhib". Thanks, Ronline 13 May 2006 01:41 (UTC)

Sorry for Romanian, it is my mistake. Of course Romani (i'm not good in english and english main names). In Poland there is one more name for Romani language : "Język romów", in english it means "Roms language", just like in Polish we say: "Roms cluture" but no "Gypsys culture", "Roms music" and others like this.

And about dialects, in some free time i do some fixes in article in Polish wikipedia about: pl:Język cygański and i sugest some name changes for Język romów.

Best Regards

Stimoroll _Talk

kerdo Katovice Desiphral 16 May 2006 16:37 (UTC)

[editisar] Communication and credibleness issues ("credibility", is what the author meant to say)

I still have to write in English, because the last trollish comments by the person(s) with the Italian IPs (82.48.126.90, 82.48.203.187 and others) were intended for the non-Romani audience, trying to cast a bad image upon this project in a moment when there is not yet too much quality information in English about Romani language issues. It is easy to tell lies and to distort the facts when people are unaware of what is going on. The fact that the language is currently in process of extension (in order to be used in every modern context) produces a healthy debate about the ways to follow, but may brings also disruptive comments aiming just at making waves without any serious contribution.

If someone feels like coming late here and seeing the project having a direction or another, please note that every step made implies a direction. In the contemporary context of the Romani language every step of this kind might be questionable but it is still a much better thing than doing nothing and criticizing those who dare to do something. Also, if it is about steps and moving, everyone should take in consideration the technical posibilities of Wikipedia, that make any change easy to do, such a good opportunity for a language on march, with a community determined to do a good work.

This wiki is intented for the generic, standard Romani, at its evolution participating all the dialects with equal rights. In this context it is not true that "Kalderashitsko is the standard Romany, as it's the most widespread dialect worldwide". For every word are recorded all the available variants. Desiphral 15 May 2006 18:52 (UTC)

Regarding other possible trollish comments intent upon the non-speaker audience, personally, I consider it is not necessary to reply for the sake of credibleness to every unserious statement. And the non-speakers are asked not to take for granted every unsustained claim. Desiphral 15 May 2006 19:22 (UTC)

Kana janes romanes, mishto si te das duma kadya. Kadava shai te avel ek romano than kana roma kamen te keren vareso le romenge. Na sar varesave so chi janas kana si rom vai aver so janel vareso romanes, mothovindoi le gajenge stereotipurya sar "ame, le roma, savaxt phiras" te dikhlyoven "cool" gajendar. So keras amenge te keras. Desiphral 15 May 2006 19:35 (UTC)

It's evident that the author of this article is trying to impose his own theory and discredit the truth. When he denies that Kalderashitsko is the standard Romany and the most widespread one, is saying a great misleading statement, and is denying the evidences. On the other side, his own version of pseudo-Romany which he is publishing here, is not spoken by any Rom on the whole world.

Unfortunately, with such kind of [mis]information, the non-Romany speakers will remain misinformed about our language and culture. Fortunately, Roma know that such misinformation doesn't correspond to our own language patterns; it's a pity that non-Roma remain misinformed.

Communication and CREDIBILITY (do you speak Romany as you speak English? - the term "credibleness" is seldom used in English!), we Roma think that it's a great problem that the author has to solve, reviewing his own conceptions, which are not the way Roma communicate, and is not credible because the language used doesn't correspond to Romany in many aspects.

Sostar gindis ke chiri shib si e shukar thai e chachi? Chi ramos sar yekh chacho Rom del duma, thai dikhzhol ke ferdi sichilian e romani shib, ke nai chiri shib chachi.

[editisar] I am absolutely utterly confused

Hello, embarassingly, despite being Rom . . . I speak rather little, and also as far as I am concerned. Writing a Romanes Wikipedia WILL be difficult, as

1. There is no official writing system, Devenagari is nice but is a hassle for many Rom to learn (and for American Rom, who in general are lazy sloths) and Latin alphabet is too non-phonetic for me (I hate the fact that we can't have a nice phonetic writing system, like letter a would only make one sound and so forth).

Devanagari is such a writing system, having one letter corresponding to one sound, since it is suited for a Indo-Aryan language. Also in Latin there are some known correspondences between a sound and the possibilities to write them. See the English article en:Romani writing systems. Desiphral देसीफ्राल 4 iulie 2006 13:40 (UTC)

Devanagari is an UNSUITABLE writing system for Romany shib. End of subject. Any attempt to "officialize" this writing among Roma is unavoidably destined to fail.- Kadava biprinjardo lekhavipen si katar 80.116.130.14

2. I don't think many Rom can read as well as speak. They may not understand all this.

3. Many Roma don't care, at least the ones I know. I go to Gypsy Chat 2000 and I'm generally picked on for using words they don't understand and trying to make them be like gaishei. --71.127.241.112 4 iulie 2006 08:00 (UTC) (FlareNUKE)

It looks like it is not easy task to make an articulate presentation of the Roma. I am not sure this is the best way to present your personal experiences, especially when you say you are Rom, so you should know that these untrue generalizations are taken for granted by many non-Roma and afterwards used to harm Roma. Sayings like "many Roma don't care" and others alike don't present facts that are inherent in the Roma people, they might be concourses of events, personal experiences, especially when they are not the result of thoroughgoing studies of the matters involved. The fact that there is not so much communication between Roma and the others and that Roma don't have a strong lobby in the public life gives a tremenduous power to these generalizations and also might contribute to the impression that Roma are a static exotic people that don't evolve and couldn't ever evolve. These generalizations are just images independent to the people they try to present, since the very people does not present an articulate word to say to the others in these matters. This is a fact of the Roma, minority everywhere, since the others live in their own countries and don't have to explain every minute why they exist. Are Roma bad because they don't present themselves? I don't think it is a single ethnic group that knows how to present itself to the foreigners, this is not an easy task. And the fact is that, when we want to do something in the public life, we have to present ourselves in a way or another. Desiphral देसीफ्राल 4 iulie 2006 13:40 (UTC)

Well, I can't find one article that contains any length, and not that many articles. Also why isn't stuff written in Devenagari? It is the official spelling or whatever, for some reason the articles are written in Latin characters. --FlareNUKE 13 iulie 2006 08:37 (UTC)

In fact, because Devanagari has nothing to do with Romany. Romany publications worldwide are written in Latin characters or else in Kyrillic (for Russian and other Roma of Slavic countries). Nothing is written in Devanagari, it's the idle attempt of the Wikipedia editor (who is a Gadjo) to impose such a writing to our language, as a further demonstration fo the Gadje's prepotence towards our people.- Kadava biprinjardo lekhavipen si katar 80.116.130.14

Er . . . Right. Anyway, if it was just one wiki member who decided it, then it would be removed as Original Resarch. Not to mention that there's devanagari on this site. Let's not pretend we're some anti-gadjei thing okay ;) --FlareNUKE 3 august 2006 04:29 (UTC)

FlareNUKE--you are either ignorant or a liar. Devangari is a marginal script not seriously used for any real world romany publications.

If you have sources that suggest otherwise, pray share them. As none exist though, you might have difficulty doing so.- Kadava biprinjardo lekhavipen si katar 70.49.188.16

Si te das duma po tiro puchhipen, ama/pale soske sikaves numa ekh rig? E aver trin lekhimata (latinikano, kirilikano, elenikano) kasa lekhavel pes i romani chhib akana numa varesave manusha labyaren len, sa kadya sar varesave manusha labyaren i devanagari. De cira deshbersha inklen publikaciye pe romanes, pale sar te phenas ke si ekh kamlyardo lekhipen, kas but roma labyaren les. Akana numa varesave manusha labyaren svako lekhipen, vi nai ekh akademiya te chhinavel so grafem avel mishto ekhe shunipnaske. Kathe ame astardyam te keras ekh romani enchiklopidiya thai inklen dui probleme: lekhimata thai neve lava (svako diyalekto leske neve lavenca vs. nishte neve lava labyarde sa diyalekturendar). Kana nai aver projekto sar kadava te sikavel o lachho drom, atunch me dav godi ke svakones gindo kai varekon vakyarel les kathe trebul te zumavel les mai anglal te phenas ke si lachho vai bilachho. Kana varekon phenel ke ekh nevo lav nai lachho atunch mishto si te del aver variyanta, te das duma thai te dikhas so te keras. Kana varekon kamel ekh lekhavipen atunch te lekhavel lesa te dikhen vi e aver sar de lachho si kodova. Me dav godi ke numa zumavindoi svako gindo ame shai te keras ekh lachhi enchiklopidiya e romengi. Desiphral-देसीफ्राल phen ma-फेन मा 21 august 2006 10:11 (UTC)

You raised a question that needs to be debated, but why do you present just one side of the story? Namely, the fact that the other three known writing systems used for Romani (Latin, Cyrillic and Greek) are used by some people the same as Devanagari is used by some people. There are roughly some decades since a more or less significant number of works in Romani is published, but we can not say yet that there is an established, popular writing system for Romani, to be used by many Romani speakers. All of them are in a phase of use by only some speakers, needless to say that there is not yet a kind of Academy to regularize the exact correspondence between sounds and letters for any of the above writing systems. Now we began to make an encyclopaedia in Romani in wiki format and we have to confront all of these problems. The situation being as it is now, at least two points for debate raised: the one about the writing systems and the other about neologisms (every dialect borrowing from local languages vs. some neologisms acceptable for all the dialects). But, personally, I think that every viewpoint raised by the construction of this encyclopaedia should not just be posted on the talk of the main page, it must be proved by concrete work to show the way it can solve the inherent problems of this kind of project, since, as far as I know, there is not a previous similar project of this kind to prove any viewpoint (including the writing systems), for such a work on a large scale. I don't see a better way other than testing (aiming at positive results) to make this encyclopaedia workable, a possibility that we may enjoy in this wiki environment. Also I think that, besides proving every idea, the writing of the opinions themselves in Romani, by those who say they know the language, would be necessary to express some kind of seriousness.Desiphral-देसीफ्राल phen ma-फेन मा 21 august 2006 10:23 (UTC)

Savi shib si kodya ke tu ramos? Tu akares la "rhomanés"??!! 99% le romenge ande lumya nashti halyaren mishto so mothos!!! Si pherdo GAZHIKANE divanurya katar e Indiya, ke e Rom chi prinzharas!

What kind of language is that in which you write? Do you call it "Romany"??!! 99% of Roma in the world would hardly understand all your words!!! It's plenty of NON-ROMANY terms from India, which Roma don't know at all! - Kadava biprinjardo lekhavipen si katar 82.50.156.251

O "trolo e Torinostar", de nevo, so kerel numa bilachhe butya te rimol kadaya enchiklopidiya. Janel vi vov/voi vareso pe romanes thai avel kathe te phenel ke vov/voi si "99% le romenge" thai so mothovel vov/voi sa e roma trebul te keren kadya. Phenel ke janel o diyalekto kalderashicko, pale e duma so vov/voi chi janel (vai vakyarel ke chi janel) phenel ke nai romane. Lav, mothovdyas vov/voi, nai romano, ama kathe Mateo Maximoff, so janel kaldershicko, labyarel les. Lil si lachho, soske patrin? phenel o trolo, kana but roma labyaren patrin (vi kathe). O chacho chachipen si ke kathe ni lil, ni patrin nai definitivne lava thai ame trebul te das duma thai te chhinavas sar te keras, na te avel varekon te phenel "me sem 99% le romenge thai me chhinavav sar te keras". Vi e buti so kerel sikavel ke vov/voi chi kamel kadaya vikipidiya vi ke amari kultura si lesko/lako dushmano. Kon janel soske keres tu kadya buti? Godisarav ke so te phenes bilachhimata, mai mishto te phenes ekhvar soske kames tu te terdyol kadaya wiki.

The "Torino troll" again, who once or twice a month comes here to write unserious statements. He/she knows more or less Romani, proclaims he/she is a speaker of Kalderash dialect, but whatever he/she doesn't know (or pretending not to know) he/she complains is not real Romani in the name of 99% of the Roma (!?). Like saying that lav is a Indo-Aryan neologism, while this word is used by Mateo Maximoff, a Kalderash speaker (see here). Or insisting that lil is the most used Romani word for "page", while everyone knows it is patrin (see here). The idea is that, here, nor patrin neither lil are final choices, but every decision should be decided by a healthy debate, not because someone comes here saying that he/she is "99% of the Roma". That's because, by now, there is a scarcity of active users here. What if I am going to write in English on the main page of Kurdish wikipedia that what is done there is not real Kurdish, and in the name of the 99% of the Kurdish speakers, of course, (giving some unserious "proofs" made for persons who don't know Kurdish)? In both wikipedias there is the same problem of being written in more dialects, but who will care there? And also every statement is disruptive, unhappy with the existence of this wikipedia and expresssing disdain for our culture. Who knows what is your real interest in doing this? If you feel like motivating the closure of this wiki, then post your reasons (serious ones, of course), instead of repeating every month the same thing in the name of the "99%". Desiphral-देसीफ्राल phen ma-फेन मा 28 septembrie 2006 18:42 (UTC)

[editisar] Modship.

I request modship, as this Wikipedia clearly needs work, and I've seen some blank articles I would like to delete. So? --FlareNUKE 3 august 2006 04:54 (UTC)

[editisar] Translation help

Hi,

I've heard a song from a movie and I am intrigued by it. I like it a bit but I am not sure if the words are actual words that make sense or gibberish that tricks people into thinking its real Romani. If it is, can anyone see if they can listen to the song and give us some lyrics and/or translations?Here is the song. Please help. 69.192.62.63 19 august 2006 19:32 (UTC)

The link redirects to the main page. I can't find the song, Desiphral-देसीफ्राल phen ma-फेन मा 21 august 2006 10:24 (UTC)

Try right-clicking on the link and clicking "Save Target As..". This will save it on your computer. 69.192.62.63 21 august 2006 16:37 (UTC)

Also, do you understand the word 'Kelas'? 69.192.62.63 22 august 2006 21:49 (UTC)

Which of all links? "Kelas" means "we dance", or in imperative sentence, "let's dance".

[editisar] Question about Latin/Devanagari

Is there anyway we can supply both Latin and Devenagari versions of articles besides making seperate articles, as they will need to be updated for each edit. Something we can set in the prefrences maybe? --FlareNUKE 15 septembrie 2006 06:14 (UTC)

It would be the possibility to have an automatic translation from Latin to Devanagari, the same as in Serbian and Chinese Wikipedias. As far as I know the technology would permit only one way translation, a writing system would be choosed as the principal one. In this case (I suppose the Latin would be the principal), the automatic translation in Devanagari would be a temporary page. So if someone would like to write in Devanagari, it would be possible only along the Latin articles. Also in this case we should write more carefully the vowells in Latin. In some cases as they are written know, they don't respect the Romani phonology, as it is recorded in Devanagari, regarding the difference between the long and short vowels. Anyway, this seems to be the only available option by now. It would be nice to have the techonolgy to make possible edits for a single article from one script or another, that would change accordingly the same article written with the different script (eventually preserving in the history page the name of the script with which the edit was done). With the help of the users Ronline and Gangleri I began some preliminary discussions with persons that implement this feature, but everything got stuck because we didn't find a monospaced (every letter should occupy the same space) Devanagari font. By now, not all the possibilities are waisted, but I still have to find enough free time to try to reach a solution. Desiphral-देसीफ्राल phen ma-फेन मा 15 septembrie 2006 17:12 (UTC)

The only reasonable solution is to avoid Devanagari as a Romany writing, it will NEVER be used by Roma! All attempts to write Romany in Devanagari are utterly idle... Kadava biprinjardo lekhavipen si katar 82.50.156.251

Don't tell me you said this also in the name of the 99% of the Roma... you keep talking like you are convinced you are the hidden conscience or the Roma when you utter these uncompromising personal decisions... Desiphral-देसीफ्राल phen ma-फेन मा 28 septembrie 2006 19:07 (UTC)

And how many Roma do you speak for, Desiphral? Is it you yourself alone, or you and that other guy on here who finds pretending he reads Devanagari fun? --74.12.141.73 10 aprilie 2007 06:32 (UTC)

[editisar] An experience

I am not a Roma. However, I would like to share some experience from my language about the use of scripts. My language is Nepal Bhasa or Newari. The main script that was developed was Prachalit. Another of our script that we developed called Ranjana, is a very popular Buddhist script worldwide esp in Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism. These scripts have been our primary scripts but we have continued using other scripts as well. The reason being that the more script we use, the more is the likelyhood of survival of our language. We have a 16th century inscription in our ancient palace in Kathmandu written in about 20 scripts including Latin and Arabic. Out of many scrpits that we developed and adapted, the use of Devnagari has helped us connect with Indian languages, the Ranjana with Sino-Tibetan (Buddhist) languages and to some extent Japanese and Bangali and Brahmi with Asiatic and Kirat languages. Hence, even after Nepal Bhasa has ceased from official use for about 300 years and after repressive policies from autocratic Governments that followed, we still have our lanuguage intact. Besides, in this era, we are using it in the internet, radio, television, schools, colleges etc. All this was possible because we did not limit our language to our particular tribe or our particular script. Had we Newars limited Nepal Bhasa just to Newars and our script just to Prachalit, our language might have been dead by now. Here, I see that there is debate among Roma as to the use of Devnagari. It is upto you people to decide what is best for the language. But I think that the use of Devnagari is a good idea. The only reason why I took an interest in this wikipedia was because it is written in Devnagari as well. It is not just me but other users are also gaining interest and are willing to help and learn Romani just because of use of Devnagari here. So, I think that the use of Devnagari is helping for the perpetuation of Romani. So, I would like to tell you people to get over Romani for Roma only and Latin is the only Romani script attitude and start working seriously to develop this wikipedia to make this a better wikipedia with more and better articles.--Eukesh 6 noiembrie 2006 17:41 (UTC)

[editisar] Romany?

I always thought the language was called "Romanes" or "Xomanes" (I don't know how the spelling conventions work). Or is Romani/y just the English name.

"Romanes" is the adverb, "Romani" is the adjective. Desiphral-देसीफ्राल phen ma-फेन मा 3 octombrie 2006 12:14 (UTC)

[editisar] Transliteration

Guys it's bad idea to run wiki in two scripts - look forexample at the navigation tab - it looks horrible as it's very huge. I propose you to remove indic script and to create normal transliterator (as it's on zh.wiki) - if you don't know how to - ask the transliteration tables' creator on zh.wiki - he'll help for sure -- 82.209.211.116 3 octombrie 2006 20:40 (UTC)

Yep, I consider too this is the solution. Until now, I made some attempts to see it working, hopefully, we will be able to implement it. Desiphral-देसीफ्राल phen ma-फेन मा 5 octombrie 2006 13:40 (UTC)

[editisar] Devanagari is NOT used for Romani.

Devanagari is NOT used for Romani. The Romany wikipedia is clearly a language planning project, not an encyclopedia. --74.12.164.27 31 martie 2007 02:19 (UTC)

That is an dictate imposed by a sheer majority wanting to push their own agenda. There is a difference between what they propose and the current reality at Romani wiki. They want to forbid a modality used for Romani expression, while currently at rmy.wp there is freedom of expression for all the variants. Desiphral-देसीफ्राल 1 aprilie 2007 09:59 (UTC)

If by "freedom" you mean the freedom to dishonestly push your own agenda, then yes. Very true. This page is a testimony to your dishonesty. --74.12.141.73 10 aprilie 2007 06:29 (UTC)

Romani has no central authority or geographical continuity. This coupled with low percentage of first-language literacy amongst Roma makes it difficult to say which script is preferred. I mention that there is sizeable Devanagri movement atleast amongst educated Roma in my geographic area. Desiphral-देसीफ्राल 10 aprilie 2007 11:22 (UTC)

How many of your local Roma elite read and write Romani in Devanagari exclusively, or even primarily? More than 5?

Are they published writers by chance? Do you write (or write for) newspapers? Is there any evidence of their activities being taken seriously by anyone other than themselves? --74.12.146.181 11 aprilie 2007 15:24 (UTC)

The contemporary situation of those using Devnagri in Southeastern Europe is strongly influenced by the contemporary political situation, with a majority of population that seeks to assimilate us and to erase any Romani contribution to the local society. Until there will appear a sort of a Romani publishing house, there are small chances to print such kind of work. For example, there is another Rom from my area who wrote a comparative dictionary between Romani and other Indo-Aryan languages, but he could not publish it yet. But the situation is currently unfolding, the attacks from the English Wikipedia give another pressure, so give a few months and I hope there will be available something printed. In the meantime, I denounce again the role of "ethnic police" of those who seek to hunt down Romani contributions and to restrict the use of this language, an opinion well expressed here by Yanko le Rejosko:

"Surely if groups of individuals who identify themselves as Romanies seek to assert their ethnicity, and to ally themselves with other such groups similarly motivated, then this is entirely their own business, and the non-Romani anthropologists, linguists, sociologists, folklorists and others who have taken upon themselves the role of ethnic police are interfering and presumptuous at best, and are perpetuating paternalistic attitudes. I call for a new respect and a new cooperation between Romanies and gadje, and an end to the 19th century cultural colonialism that lives on in only slightly modified guise."

Desiphral-देसीफ्राल 12 aprilie 2007 12:15 (UTC)

Your accusations of racism hide nothing but your own racism. You are dishonest. The Romani wikipedia will be fixed sooner or later.

There are plenty of Roma publications in the world... just none of them use Devanagari. --70.53.122.239 12 aprilie 2007 16:33 (UTC)