Wikipedia talk:Scots-English-Scots dictionar

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Table o contents 1 Innin 2 Exceptions tae the RRSSC 3 General Rules o the RRSSC 4 English-Scots-English 5 Shuid Should be Shoud? 6 Types of Scots words and ither thochts 7 Wirds needit 8 Bap 9 Ben 10 Inch 11 Lallans spellins 12 Craic 13 Wrang wey roond

[edit] Innin

Talk aboot spellins, grammar an the ilk shid be keepit i' this thread.

[edit] Exceptions tae the RRSSC

Whit spellins no in the report shid we forby cleave tae? 4th Aug 2005 BryanAJParry

Tae my mynd, nane, an A'll tell ye whit wey.

Efter haein wrocht a puckle airticles nou (the maist Scots screivin A'v duin in ma puff), A'm no ower fond o the RRSSC. A think it disna hae a mensefu wey o dealin wi terminal -ie/-y, an A'm stertin tae think the ei spellins (whaur the'r an i in the English) is orra. But, Scots spellin is:

1. a gey emotive eissue
2. gradually gettin mair an mair staundardeised

Sae whit A'm thinkin is this. The next time some o thae clever chiels that kens anent spellin haes a collogue, gif we'v keepit tae the RRSSC, we'll be in a guid poseition tae say aboot its recommends "This wirks" or "This disna wirk", an (wi onie luck) thay'll tak tent o that.

A think we shuid aye keep tae the RRSSC an aa its recommends, acause Scots spellin is a gey controversial eissue. Raither nor haein arguments aboot the spellin, we shuid aa gree tae compromise an uise the maist recent recommends, houiver muckle we dinna gree wi thaim (A dinna gree wi plenty o things). The time an airt for haein arguments is at the spellin collogues, no here. Mendor 17:40, 4 Augist 2005 (UTC)

PS Efter haein wrocht aa this A'm shuir some o the abuin disna follae the RRSSC... that's omission, no comission, honest...

PPS A wadna enforce this for the collogue pages, o coorse. A think ye shuid be able tae uise whitiver spellin ye want on thae pages (sae lang's it can be unnerstood, o coorse).

Weel spoken, Mendor. I gree wi aa that. Ye've nailed it 100%. -- Derek Ross

I'm not happy about it, but if both the admins agree, I'll leave it to that. BryanAJParry

[edit] General Rules o the RRSSC

Mebbe we shid mak a list (here) o the rules for to speil wirds based on the RRSSC. A summary like. BryanAJParry

[edit] English-Scots-English

Apart from this list, wich is a great help, an English to Scots dictionary would be great too! Moribunt 10:30, 4 Augist 2005 (UTC)

Whit for no juist uise this ane? http://www.scots-online.org/dictionary/ It haes baith Scots -ENglish an English -Scots

Cannie Mannie 11:30, 4 Augist 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Shuid Should be Shoud?

On the hamepage it leets should as shuid whan it says, "leets o airticles aa wikipaedia shuid hae" so A think that that is the proper spelling. Nou Uiserr

Shoud is the empahtic form wi vouel 6 fae the IPA_chairt_for_Scots. Unempahtic froms kythes wi vouels 15 an 19. Nane o the variants athort the dialects taks vouel 7. The spellin shuid is the affcome o fowk that's dialects merges vouel 7 wi vouel 15. A tak it emphatic forms is ordinar for writin in a kin o staundart register.

Cannie Mannie 14:30, 4 Augist 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Types of Scots words and ither thochts

• This juist seems to leet Scots words that arena shared wi English. Gin we are gaun ti hae it (an I think it would be better in Wiktionary nor here sin Wikipaedia isna a dictionar) than we shuid leet words that are shared wi English as weel. Aften fowk'll evyte a common Scots word cause they're feart it's English. Haein thae words in a leet wad set fowk's mynds at rest.

• There's a word leet in the RRSSC document giein recommendit spellin for the maist common words, sae I dinna think its that worthwhile makkin oor ain. Gin we're aifter haein ane, we shiud copy theirs. It's mair important that we uise our time ti mak an encyclopedia -- nae anither dictionar -- sith there's a hantle o Scots dictionars aboot but this is the ae Scots encyclopaedia. As Cannie Mannie said abuin there's a perfeckly guid dictionar at Scots-online.

• Forbye there are plenty o Scots-English dictionars an word-leets aboot. They're fine for holpin fowk ti read text whan they're nae that fameiliar wi Scots. Houaniver, we're nae daein that: we're screivin text an for that, as Moribunt says, an English-Scots dictionar or thesaurus is mair uise, sin a beginner is mair like to ken a word in English but need to finnd the Scots equivalent. Sae the current leet wad be better organised wi English words an Scots meanins than wi Scots words an English meanins. -- Derek Ross 15:39, 4 Augist 2005 (UTC)

User:Nou Uiserr - A've chynged ma mynd aboot uniformin spellin. Nou, A think that gin thay're variform hit's juist as guid.

Ay yer richt. Thon wey nae maiter whit fowk writes its aye richt. It easier an mair fun tae mak things up as ye gang alang. Thon wey learners an fowk that disna ken whit thay're daein disna feel discreeminatit.

Thon an wa leuks awfu lik a typo for an aw.

Jimmy 19:55, 5 Augist 2005 (UTC)

We is yuisin the spellin "aa", A think, Jimmy ;) BryanAJParry

Anent the pynt that "it would be better if all pages were as uniform as possible", that's fair, Nou Uiserr, an it's whit we're aa aifter. Atweill, it's why we've settled on the RRSSC document ti standardise oor spellin an graimar. Gin ye haena gotten a copy o that document, I steively recommend that ye get ane. It's got a common word-leet, an discussion on spellin an graimar that maks a deal o sense. Forbye the document itsel is screiven in Scots uisin its ain rules and sae gies a fine exemplar o whit can be daen. -- Derek Ross 16:10, 4 Augist 2005 (UTC)

A gree wi that. Ye maun get a copy o the RRSSC gin ye dinna hae ane -- Scots-Online whiles uises anither spellin seestem nor oors sae its dictionar, altho unco uissfu, disna aye gie a "correct" spellin for oor purposes. It haes a gran word-leet forbye, as Derek says.

Gin Scots-Online isna bein a help, try the Dictionar o the Scots Leid (but A wad recommend ye wale "SND and SND Supplement" — DST is mair o a historic dictionar nor a guide tae uiss the day) Mendor 17:48, 4 Augist 2005 (UTC)

Somebody seems tae been readin Irvine Welsh an haes seen us a puckle slang wirds an some illeeterate spellins.

An whit wirds are thae? Nou Uiserr

[edit] Wirds needit

A wantit tae speir hou tae scrieve the Scots wird fae "Dedicated". Onybody ken? Nou Uiserr

hou aboot dedicate/dedicatit?

[edit] Bap

"bap is mair Ulster Scots, roll of bread in Scots fae Scotland"

Shuirly baps is weel-kent in Scotland?

roll of bread leuks awfu like English. Aiberdeen awa fowk haes rowies. 84.135.199.94 10:52, 2 Mairch 2006 (UTC)

Bap is an Ulster an NW o England word. Rowie is juist in the NE an is juist acos NE fowk aye pits an extrae endin on -ie aw ower the place. It isnae staundard Scots. A shuid hae pit breid insteid o bread but ye didnae gie me time to tak oot ony typos. Benarty 12:02, 2 Mairch 2006 (UTC)

The scots form o roll is rowe. O coorse Scots speakers is aye takkin up English forms, some haes taen it sae faur their Scots sounds like English with a Scottish accent. Is it still Scots though? The -ie is a diminutive. Whit is staundart Scots an whaur can A find a guid descreeption o't?

84.135.199.94 12:28, 2 Mairch 2006 (UTC)

Luik at whit's athin aw thae brackets. English no Scots. Benarty 12:45, 2 Mairch 2006 (UTC)

Aye, we hae rowies in Aberdeen (an the lave o the Northeast forby). But we hae baps an aa. A rowie is a butter rowe but a bap is a breid rowe. They'r nae the same by a lang wey. Tae confuse maiters further we hae "safties", saft biscuits tae. They'r seemlar tae baps but floorier. -- Derek Ross 06:52, 3 Mairch 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ben

"Ben (Mountain) (modren Lallans spellin)" Whit wad the nane-Lallans spellin be? 84.135.199.94 10:53, 2 Mairch 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Inch

"Inch (Small Island/Isle) (modren Lallans spellin)" Whit wad the nane-Lallans spellin be? 84.135.199.94 10:59, 2 Mairch 2006 (UTC)

Juist a typo. Gie me time tae mak corrections. Benarty 11:56, 2 Mairch 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lallans spellins

Whit's Lallans spellins? Whit's the kenspeckle merks o a Lallans spellin as agin a nane-Lallans spellin?

84.135.199.94 11:33, 2 Mairch 2006 (UTC)

Lallans is MacDiamid an co an wi thare 20th century "revival". No auld Scots fae Barbour up tae Burns, Galt an Hogg. Benarty 12:06, 2 Mairch 2006 (UTC)

Ah! Sae ye mean spellin s lik thir here?

I met ayont the cairney
A lass wi' tousie hair
Singin' till a bairnie
That was nae langer there. 

Wunds and walds to swing
Dinna sing sae sweet.
The licht that bends owre a'thing
Is less ta'en up wi't 

84.135.199.94 12:34, 2 Mairch 2006 (UTC)

Whit are ye on aboot? "Modren phonetic Lallans spellin" disnae say it's guid an disnae it's bad. Benarty 12:43, 2 Mairch 2006 (UTC)

"Whit are ye on aboot?" That's whit A'm speirin.

Whit's "Modren phonetic Lallans spellin" an hou can A sinder thaim fae ither spellins?

84.135.199.94 13:20, 2 Mairch 2006 (UTC)

A'm cuirious aboot the comment "modren Lallans spellin" an aw. E'en if Lallans refers tae the 20t century "revival" o fowk like William Soutar, Robert Garioch, Douglas Young an Sydney Goodsir Smith apparently led bi Hugh McDiarmid, sae faur As A can gaither fae their writin, the wey they spelt wirds wis mair or less the same as fowk lik Burns, Fergusson and Scott haed be daein in their time. Maist hauds wi the "apologetic apostrophe" an mair aften than no uises spellins lik about, hour, our an out etc. There niver wis a serious continued uiss o aulder Scots spellin efter the unions sae A wad threap the 'conventions' o modren Scots spellin is mair or less them inheritit fae Burns an Fergusson etc.

A canna find ocht that coud be seen tae seestematically differ their (McDiarmid et al) wey o writin fae ither Scots writin efter the poleetical union. Thon comment anent modren Lallans spellin seems tae be eikit ahint wirds spelt wi ai lik faither, lairge, mairch, pairk, pairt an stairt, wi oo lik aboot and coont. Wast is fund in the leeterar record an e'en in DOST. tho Wester is the form fund on OS maps mebbes semply acause its juist anglifee'd - on the same basis a body could threap that house is the uisual spellin acause o place names lik Auldhouse, Turnhouse an Easterhouse. Aw the same e'en the uiss o ee in Laitinate wirds the likes o releegion, peety an veesion etc. isna sae modren. Gin a body rins ony o thir spellins mentiont abuin throu "Full entry" in the SND maist o them can be fund in uiss in the 19t century lang afore "modren Lallans". Asides thon A aften come ower fowk that uises mony o the wirds that's merkit archaeic but thon micht juist be doun tae hou auld a body is an whaur they bide.

Jimmy 22:08, 4 Mairch 2006 (UTC)

This submission by Sandy Fleemin tae the Education, Culture and Sport Committee at Holyrood is wirth readin. [1] Benarty 22:25, 4 Mairch 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for thon. Aw that daes is mention that the Lallans movement cam up wi the Scots Style Sheet that A managed tae find as pairt o A Scots Grammar Scots Grammar & Usage bi David Purves. Maist aw that did wis say tae drap the "apologetic apostrophe" an recommendit a mair seestematic spellin o vouel soonds that seems tae based on them that coud be fund in a guid bit o written Scots fae the aforegane century, sae nocht new or parteecular Lallans in that - unless drappin the apostrophe is a kenspeckle Lallans invention - tho as A mentiont afore e'en the Lallans writers uised it. Tho the Style Sheet did sinder the present participle an the verbal noun. The Recommendations for Writers in Scots (can be fund at the afore mentiont link) cam a while efter the Lallans movement and seems tae introduce mair spellins fae aulder Scots especially wi consonants giein spellins lik mukkil an no muckle. As Sandy Fleemin mentiont, it seemt tae get awfu cairiet awa wi the uiss o ei for vouel 2. Purves's ain spellins seems tae be e'en mair influenced bi Aulder Scots. Aw the same nane o thon maks modren Lallans spellin ony mair transparent, an gaun bi whit A'v seen, aw that thae different spellins is, is variants that coud aften be fae aboot ony time an ony place, an canna be identifee'd as modren Lallans spellin, the phrase itsel bein kin o meaninless acause o the want o a defineetion o whit it means. Mebbes it shoud be duin awa wi? Anither twa interestin reads A cam ower wis Heid Bangin an The Way Forward.

Jimmy 17:34, 5 Mairch 2006 (UTC)

This is the kin o Victorian Scots orthography that was uised in the Victorian era (afore the mair phonetic Lallans folk that follaed) that Sandy Fleemin quotit fae P. Hay Hunter's novel "James Inwick":-

I no' mind o' the wife bein sae upliftit wi onythin, aa the time we've been thegither, as wi
me bein made an elder. I was made muckle o, thae days, I can tell ye; there was naethin ower guid 
for Jims; it minded me o' the time whan I was coortin her, four-an'-thretty year syne. An' whan it 
cam roun' to the Saiturday nicht afore the day I was to be ordained, what I büde to gae through in 
the way o' reddin up!--she was that fiky, ye micht ha' thocht I was some young quean bein buskit for 
her waddin. First she set tae an' stairched an' airned my sark an' collar, an syne she got my 
guid-anes oot o' the kist, an' darned a wee hole in the coat aneath the oxter, an' hung them a' 
afore the fire to tak oot the lirks. An' after supper-time, in comes Ecky Blair, the herd at 
Toombucht, wi' his shears--she had trysted Ecky withoot ever lettin on to me--to gie me a clip; for 
she said it wad never dae for me to be stan'in up in the transe afore a' the folk, an' ma heid like 
a heather cowe. An' on the Sabbath mornin she gart me shave mysel till my chafts were like a 
year-auld bairn's, an' creish my pow wi' the claggiest pomatum she could come by; an' syne she tied 
on me a bonny new craig-cloth she had coft doun by, as white as the driven snaw.

Whan A read Sandy Fleemin's or P. Hay Hunter's Scots A'm no conscious that it's in Scots at aw, A'm juist readin awa in ma mither tung. The Scots Language Resouce Centre website is guid that wey as weill BTW. A dinnae get that feelin tho wi the orthography an vocabulary on this wiki. A think that's mibbie acos the spellins juist dinnae gie me the richt soonds in ma heid in ma east-central dialek an the vocabulary isnae whit a native speaker wad say acos it haes been distanced ower faur fae English. Wi wirds like "west" or "web" whit A wad say in Scots isnae as lang a vowel soond as "west" an "web" in English A think acos o "the Scots Vowel-Length Rule" [2] but the "wast" an "wab" spellins does ma heid in a bit acos an "ah" vowel soond wad mak it intae a langer yin. Fae whit it says on this webpage [3] Scots dialeks dinnae aw hae the same pronounciation for "west" an "web". Benarty 15:22, 6 Mairch 2006 (UTC)

A jalouse readin ony orthography an no bein conscious o't comes doun tae hou fameeliar a body is wi it. Efter aw, readin is a learned airt - pittin the richt soonds tae the spellins. Tho seein maist is fameeliar wi staundart English the nearer it is tae that, the easier it'll likely be. Ye gie's a bit Victorian writin fae "afore the mair phonetic Lallans folk" but thon bit poem gien us bi 84.135.199.94 wis bi McDiarmid an he wis apparently the 'inventor' o Lallans but the wey its written daesna seem ony different fae hou P. Hay Hunter wrate. He himsel uisin forms lik Saiturday an stairched whaur in the dictionar forms lik Faither, Lairge, Mairch an Pairt is merkit as modren Lallans spellins tho A jalouse aw them haes the selsame vouel an "ai" seems a fair wey o representin it. Hou daes Hunter hae waddin an no weddin? Is that no sib tae wast an wab? Tho some haes wob. Mebbes the "a" is mynt tae represent aither /a, ɑ or o̜/ dependin on dialect [4]. Its weel kent that central dialects is amang the maist anglifee'd sae a rowth o English forms isna byordinar - the SND says wast an wab, wob, wub is the tradeetional Scots forms. The mair anglifee'd a bodie's Scots is the mair fremmit the tradeetional maks will seem. Hunter uises a guid few English forms tho A jalouse they're mynt tae be soondit Scots, for example to (tae), after (efter) an cloth (claith). Mair oot ower the body skails apostrophes aw ower the page - shoud we follae sicna example? Aw awfu interestin but A'm no ony nearer unnerstaundin whit's meant bi modren Lallans spellin gie's a definition o thon - please! Or is it juist an ettle tae represent the unnerlying phonemes in a mair seestematic wey? Something that maist fowk afore haedna aye duin. E'en Sandy Fleemin sugeests a spellin seestem based on the Victorian, but better thocht oot impleein representin the unnerlying phonemes in a mair seestematic wey. Mebbes its juist some o the weys the lallans folk daes that? Whit anes an why? Here's a bit screed that ettles tae shaw the unnerlyin phonology o (the braidest forms o) the Scots dialects tho it seems maist interestit in shawin Ulster Scots [5]. Jimmy 23:20, 6 Mairch 2006 (UTC)

"is amang the maist anglifee'd". Is Sandy Fleemin amang the maist anglifee'd? A'm a wee bit seik o this nou fae some o the NE fowk on here. It's no so faur awa fae bein abuise an that's no whit wikipedia is aw aboot. It isnae a NE - central thing wi bein "maist anglifee'd". It's mair o rural - urban yin. The maist Scots spoken boddie A hiv iver met wes a wee wumman fae Lesmahagow/Lesmahaigae (that's juist 20 mile fae Glesgae) an A hiv bidden athin Aberdeen an the NE as weill as in Central Scotland. Young fowk fae Torry, Seaton, Northfield an Kincorth isnae that Scots spoken the day it's mair English wi a Scots accent an in the posh pairts o Aberdeen like Cults it's aw panloaf. It's no like it is oot in the Broch or Buckie wi the fisher fowk. In central Scotland it's the same wye. Fowk in the mair rural pairts an amang the wee touns in the auld coalfields in the sooth o Lanarkshire, Fife an Ayrshire is mair Scots spoken than urban fowk in the schemes in the north o Lanarkshire, West Lothian, Glesgae, Embro etc. Benarty 08:31, 7 Mairch 2006 (UTC)

Sairy! It wisna ma intent tae affront ye. Juist tae mak the pynt ye made yersel "in the mair rural pairts an amang the wee touns in the auld coalfields in the sooth o Lanarkshire, Fife an Ayrshire is mair Scots spoken than urban fowk in the schemes in the north o Lanarkshire, West Lothian, Glesgae, Embro etc." an wi central Scotland bein mair urbanised there's mair o't - A obviously didna pit it ower awfu weel. Aw the same, A'm nane the wicer as tae whit a modren Lallans spellin wad be. Hou coud A explain whit's sae kenspeckle aboot them tae somebody? Jimmy 22:50, 8 Mairch 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Craic

Whit a nativised Erse spellins is daein in a Scots dictionar will, A dout, aye bide a meestery. 84.135.199.94 16:46, 2 Mairch 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wrang wey roond

This page is the wrang wey roond. It'd be some uiss gin it lat ye leuk up an English word an find the Scots meaning. There's nae mony sites that lat ye dae that. As it is, it juist repeats what a hunner ither sites and print dictionaries dae but wi a lot less chaunce o findin the word ye'r leukin for. Onywey, I thocht that Wikipedia wisna a dictionary. -- 204.209.24.2 00:14, 10 Mairch 2006 (UTC)

A gree. Scots Wiktionary oniebodie? Tho we'd be like tae juist be reduplicatin Andy Eagle's wark. Mendor 19:21, 28 Mairch 2006 (UTC)